The Language of Persuasion
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Welcome to the Social Media Marketing Podcast, helping you navigate the social media jungle.
And now, here is your host, Michael Stelzner.
Hello, hello, hello.
Thank you so much for joining me for the Social Media Marketing Podcast, brought to you by
Social Media Examiner.
I'm your host, Michael Stelzner, and this is the podcast for marketers and business
owners who want to know what works with social media.
Today I'm going to be joined by Jonah Berger, and we're going to explore the language of
persuasion.
If you, in your career, in your job, are in the business of persuading people or communicating
with people in any kind of capacity, I think you're going to find today's interview absolutely
fascinating.
Jonah comes at this from a scientific perspective, and we break it down in a really understandable
way.
I think you're going to find it fascinating.
By the way, I am at Stelzner on Instagram and at Mike underscore Stelzner on Twitter.
And if you're new to the show, be sure to follow us so you don't miss any of our future
content.
Let's transition over to this week's interview with Jonah Berger.
Helping you to simplify your social safari.
Here is this week's expert guide.
Today I'm very excited to be joined by Jonah Berger.
If you don't know who Jonah is, he's a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania's
Wharton School.
He's also the author of several books, including Contagious and The Catalyst.
He's a keynote speaker and marketing consultant, and his newest book is called Magic Words,
What to Say to Get Your Way.
Jonah, welcome back to the show.
How are you doing today?
Thanks so much for having me back.
I'm super excited that you're here.
Today Jonah and I are going to explore how to use language to achieve persuasion.
Now Jonah, there are a lot of people who think they understand what it means to use language,
but I want you to, but there's also some people that are like, wait, are you telling me like
the actual words I use make a difference?
There's people that are a little skeptical about that.
They might feel like they don't need any room for improvement.
Make the case as to those that are maybe a little skeptical about the use of language
and when it comes to business and marketing and why is it so important?
Yeah, so I don't have to tell you that we use language all the time, right?
Right now you and I are speaking using language.
We use language to write emails.
We use them to put together PowerPoint decks.
We use them to pitch clients.
We use them to talk to colleagues.
Even our own private thoughts rely on language.
And so basically everything we do involves words in one way or another.
But while we often think a lot about the sort of content of what we want to communicate,
if I'm making a presentation, for example, I have a general point I'm trying to get across
and I use language to do that.
We think a lot less about the specific words that we use when we are creating and communicating
those ideas.
And that's a mistake because the language we use can have a huge impact on a variety
of different outcomes.
Subtle shifts in language can shape how influential we are in shaping our audience's mind.
They can shape how much we hold the attention of the people we're trying to reach.
And even in our personal lives, they can shape the effectiveness of our relationships and
how deep our social connections are.
And so across almost every area of our lives, language matters.
Even something as simple as adding a couple of letters to the end of the word can have
an impact.
And so we really need to understand how to use these magic words and take advantage of
their power.
So this is your fourth book, if I'm not mistaken.
And we were chatting when we were preparing for this interview about how much of a work
it is really to write a book.
So why did you decide to write yet another book?
What was your motivation behind this one?
You know, this is the research I've been doing for the past decade or so, even before I came
out with The Catalyst, my last book.
This on the academic side was what I was doing a bunch of work on.
And, you know, a few things have changed in the past 10 or 15 years.
First, there's so much more data out there now about language.
You and I are having a conversation using our voices, but we could easily transcribe
this conversation in an automated way and immediately see what words we used.
Similarly, online content, people are constantly sharing their attitudes and opinions online.
There are millions of resumes online that can be parsed for data.
Conversations are being recorded.
A variety of different sources of data are out there that we can mine for insight.
We even did a project a few years ago looking at the language that makes content viral.
And so so much more language data is out there.
So much more words are out there to be mined for insight.
Other work, for example, we've mined movie scripts to understand what makes them blockbusters
or song lyrics to understand what makes a hit.
And so there's so much more data out there.
But second, there are more tools to analyze that data.
Advances in natural language processing, automated textual analysis, machine learning means we
can extract insights from data that we couldn't previously.
And so this has been the type of work that I and my colleagues have been working on for
the past decade or so, analyzing customer service calls and online content and presentations
and sales pitches to understand what language we use and how it shapes our impact.
And so that became the basis for the book Magic Words.
You know, this is not in our script, but you probably I don't know, maybe you knew that
something like ChatGPT was going to be coming out.
My guess is you had the book done by the time that came out.
What's your thoughts about what's happening in the world of AI when it comes to the use
of language?
Yeah, I mean, a lot of what's happening is that all this language data that's out there
now that is produced, not only can we as individuals can learn from it, but machines can learn
from it as well.
And so not only can they analyze text, but they can produce text in ways never seen before.
I think this technology is only going to get better, and it's only going to have more impact
on our lives.
I think the question to those individuals is, okay, what can we add?
What can we add beyond these things?
And how can by understanding how words work, can we increase our impact, right?
ChatGPT is always, technologies like it are always going to be out there to write a pretty
good response for many things, but it's not necessarily the best one, and it's not always
right.
So if we understand how language works, we can be more impactful.
Well, I'm with you 100%.
I think that anybody who's in the business of marketing, which is what we cover here
at the Social Media Marketing Podcast, needs to understand that the words that we use,
whether they be written, spoken, done through video, audio, whatever the medium is, they
really can make an impact.
And what we're going to dive into is some of the strategy behind this.
And I'm curious, kind of at a high level, what is your strategy for making a bigger
impact?
Because this is what you told me the thesis of the book, right?
Which is, how can I help people make a bigger impact in all aspects of their life?
So what is that strategy at a high level?
Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting and challenging, my first book, Contagious,
was all about word of mouth, right?
How do we increase word of mouth?
My most recent book, The Catalyst, was all about how we change people's minds.
Languages includes both those things, but it's also broader, right?
The language you use shapes whether content gets word of mouth online.
The language you use shapes whether people change their minds.
The language you use also impacts how creative we are, how helpful other people find us,
whether they take our advice, whether we shape their own behavior, and whether we deepen
social connections with friends and colleagues.
And so this isn't just kind of language does one thing, and here are four or five types
of language that do that one thing.
It's really about how we can use language in all aspects of our lives to make things
better, whether it's increasing our impact, it convincing clients, colleagues, whether
it's about designing more engaging online content, whether it's just holding people's
attention for the presentation and other types of content we develop.
Yeah, so you have this strategy, this acronym you've come up with, and maybe what it's a
framework really.
Maybe you could just describe at a high level what it is, and then we'll dig in on just
some of the ones that are relevant for today's discussion.
Yeah, so I talk about six types of language in the book, six types of words that we can
use to increase our impact.
And to help us remember those types of words, I put them in an acronym that is SPEACC.
I know it has two CCs at the end rather than a K.
Couldn't come up with a better way to stuff those six concepts together.
The S stands for similarity.
The P stands for how we pose questions.
The E stands for emotion.
The A stands for the language of agency and identity.
One of the Cs stands for concreteness, and the other stands for confidence.
So these are six buckets of language, and underneath each in the book is a variety of
different tools and ways to apply it.
But by understanding these six buckets, we can really make ourselves more successful.
So let's start with agency.
Let's define what the heck that actually means, because that might mean different things.
Some people might think of the CIA when they think of agency.
So let's define what that means, and then maybe let's give some examples and break it
down a little bit.
Yeah, so at a high level, the language of agency and identity, it points out that language
not only provides information, it suggests who's in charge, who's responsible, and what
it means to engage in a particular action.
So this chapter is all about how we can use language to make ourselves feel more in control
or distance ourselves from something if it's not so beneficial, how we can use the language
of identity to frame certain things as desirable or undesirable identities, which will shift
other people's actions.
So let's get into what you mean by some of this stuff.
Yeah, so I'll give you a really, really simple example.
So often when we are trying to influence others, we ask them to do something.
We might ask someone for help, for example.
We might say something like, can you help me?
For a nonprofit, maybe we send mail or we post content online saying, go out and vote.
And so in both those cases, we're using verbs, verbs like help or vote, to encourage people
to do what we want them to do.
But it turns out a subtle shift in language, one, even two letters in some cases, but not
even more than that, can greatly increase the impact of our messages and communications.
There was a great study done many years ago at Stanford University where in an elementary
school classroom, they asked some students to help clean up.
It was a big mess on the floor, and so they asked students to help clean up.
Now some of the students, they used the traditional approach.
They said, hey, can you help clean up?
Using the verb help to encourage the students to clean up.
For a second set of students, though, they used a very slightly different approach.
Rather than saying, can you help, they said, can you be a helper?
Now I don't have to tell you that help and helper are very similar, right?
Helper is just the word help with two letters at the end.
But that increased the percentage of people that helped by about a third.
And it's not just elementary school students cleaning up.
There was more recently a study with voting where they actually sent mailers out to many
people saying, hey, we're trying to get people to turn out to vote.
And so some set of people, please go vote.
For the other set of people, rather than ask them to vote, it asked them to be a voter.
Now in this case, it's only one extra letter, right?
Vote adding an R at the end turns it into voter.
But there it increased the percentage of people that turned out to vote, consequential outcome,
by about 15%.
And you might say, well, help and helper, vote and voter, they're basically the same.
Why did this matter?
But if you look under the surface, this is all about how we can turn actions into identities.
And so most of us want to hold desirable identities.
We want to see ourselves in positive ways and avoid seeing ourselves in negative ways.
But language shapes the identity we see ourselves as holding.
So let me say, I told you about two friends of mine.
One friend runs and the other friend is a runner.
If you had to guess, which of those two people do you think runs more often?
The person who is a runner or the person who runs?
Well, I would imagine it depends how they self-identify, right?
Okay, but imagine just all you know is that one person runs and one person is a runner.
Well, if they are a runner, that means that they're consistently running in my brain.
Yeah, right.
Because they hold that identity, you think that's more consistent.
If I say someone loves dogs, oh, they like dogs.
I say someone's a dog lover, you're like, oh man, they must really love dogs.
I say someone drinks coffee, yeah, once in a while they have some coffee.
They're a coffee drinker, oh wow, they must hold that really strongly.
And so by turning actions, by turning verbs, by turning adjectives into identities,
it makes it seem more stable.
It's not just a transitory short-term thing, it's who someone is.
And so what that means is by taking an action like helping or an action like voting
and turning it to an identity, we can make people more likely to take that action
because they want to see themselves as holding that desirable identity.
Voting, yeah, that's fine.
Getting to see oneself as a voter, that's a desirable identity I want to hold.
Maybe I should do the work to vote so I can see myself as holding that identity.
And so this has a variety of different implications.
If we want to persuade someone to do something,
use language that translates it into an identity.
At the same time, we want to avoid people doing something,
the same is true but to the opposite way.
Losing is bad, being a loser is even worse, right?
Cheating is bad, being a cheater is even worse.
Some research found that in the context of an academic classroom,
telling students to cheat, well, some people didn't cheat.
Telling them not to be a cheater made them much less likely to cheat.
Why? Because cheating would then make them a cheater and so they avoid it.
And so if we want people to approach or avoid a given action,
framing it as an identity is going to make them more likely to do it.
Even holds when we're presenting ourselves or talking about some colleagues.
If we describe ourselves as, hey, I'm hardworking,
or this person is hardworking, oh, yeah, of course.
They're a hard worker?
Well, suddenly it sounds like that's a more stable trait of theirs.
You know, I'm innovative? Okay.
I'm creative? Okay.
I'm a creator? I'm an innovator?
Well, that seems like something that's more likely to persist into the future.
And so even as we're describing ourselves or our colleagues,
how we describe them can shape how people perceive us or others as well.
So I would imagine there's so many different things that are running through my brain.
First of all, I think about someone who wants to self-identify as a writer,
could simply just call themselves, I'm a writer.
Oh, yeah.
Or someone who wants to speak can say, I'm a speaker, or I'm a podcaster, or I'm a YouTuber.
Yes.
Right? Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Right?
And then you could start saying this to other people as well.
This could be very inspirational because people, you could just say you are that. Right?
And even I'm thinking about like affirmations and stuff.
I would imagine people could start saying to themselves these words
and it could help persuade them. Right?
I think that's a great point.
You know, I love what YouTube has done and maybe they weren't the first to do it,
but they've done a really good job of calling their community creators.
There you go.
Right? They're not just creating content.
Yeah, it's something someone does in their spare time.
That's for kids. Being a creator.
Well, hold on. That's a job.
Right? Being a creator is a stable, stable thing.
Same thing with being an influencer. Right?
It seems now it's not just influence.
Yeah, influence happens.
Someone is an influencer.
Well, that's a real thing that must persist over time.
And so I love your point about, you know, an affirmation.
If I want to get into running, you know, calling myself a runner will make me think,
well, I need to do this to keep this up.
So it can even be used to change your own behavior, not just change others.
Let's talk about should into could, because this is something that we were chatting about.
And I would love you to kind of expound on this a little bit,
because this also falls under this category of agency. Right?
Yeah. So we're often faced with challenges where we're trying to solve a tough problem
or we're trying to figure out a way to be more creative.
And this may happen to ourselves.
You know, I'm working on something. I got to figure out a solution.
Or as managers, as leaders, maybe we're trying to figure out how to make our teams
more creative or better at problem solving.
And often when we think about solving problems, we think about what should we do.
Right? I've got a tough problem.
Okay, what should I do?
How should I resolve this issue?
But some very nice research shows that instead of thinking about what we should do,
if instead we ask ourselves, okay, what could we do?
And again, just changing one word, right?
We're not changing what the problem is.
We're asking ourselves rather than what we should do, what we could do.
That helps us think about a much broader array of solutions.
And it helps us come to a better solution, more creative solution at the end of the process.
Even if it's not something that we came up with at first, right?
Think about what we could do. Maybe not all of those are good ideas.
But by coming up with a more diverse and disparate set of things,
it helps us reach a better final solution.
Ones that is more creative and ones that judge more creatively as well.
And so I think the implication here is clear.
Don't just think about what we should do.
Think about what we could do as well.
Well, and I start to think about, for example, in my case, I've got a bunch of staff.
You may have staff as well.
And I say to my people sometimes, like, you know, I would imagine them,
I could say to them, what could we do instead of what should we do?
Right? Because should seems to be one response, right?
Like what should we do seems to have some sort of moral implication to it, right?
Like we should do this or we shouldn't do that.
What could we do opens up like the possibilities, right?
Well, we could do this, this or this.
And then I would imagine it gets people thinking outside the box a little bit,
imagining a little bigger, right?
And in the world of persuasion and marketing, we use the word imagine a lot.
And imagine and the word could, I think, seem somehow connected.
I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?
I mean, I love the way you described it.
And I think it's exactly right, right?
Could encourages us to think more broadly, encourages us to think about possibilities,
where should is a bit more constraining, right?
Should is about what is the right answer.
Could is like, hey, what's out there?
And again, not everything that's out there is going to be good.
But by considering a broader range of things,
by considering a broader set of solutions, it'll help us reach a better outcome.
I, a number of years ago, worked for a branding company that named products.
They named things like the Subaru Outback, the Pentium chip, Dasani Water.
And I still do a little bit of naming consulting on the side.
So a number of years ago, I named the website Trulia
and have named a number of other sort of companies and organizations.
And often one thing we did at this firm, and I still do in my sort of private consulting work,
is I don't just think about the problem I'm trying to solve.
I look at a broader set of problems that are similar.
And I say, well, what would be a good name in this situation?
Not because it's always right, but it helps me think about more possibilities,
which helps me reach a better outcome.
And so thinking about coulds can help us be more creative.
So this concept of agency that kind of is the umbrella over these two concepts
that we've been talking about, which is turning shoulds into coulds
and also asking for help into a helper, right?
Turning it into an active verb, or I don't even know what the right pronoun,
whatever the heck it is.
These concepts...
And identity, yeah.
Identity, okay, yeah.
So these concepts give the recipient agency, is what I'm hearing you say, right?
Is that kind of why you called it agency?
Because it gives someone creative agency to try to identify or solve things in a broader way?
Yeah, I mean, I would say that I would call the bucket agency and identity.
And I spent a while thinking about the right name for this,
but it's kind of who's in control and what does it mean to do something?
So I'll give you another example that's where I think agency is even clearer.
You know, if you're talking to somebody and you say,
hey, did you do this?
Or did you take care of this?
Or in your personal life, you know, you may get home,
and your partner or spouse may say, did you walk the dog, for example?
You can feel really accusatory, right?
It can put the agency saying, well, why didn't you do this particular thing?
Even if we don't mean it to.
And so even something as simple as the word you, a very small word that we use all the time,
can suggest who's in control, whose responsibility something is,
and then who should take action.
We did a big analysis a few years ago,
working with a big consumer electronics company of all their social media content,
and kind of what language they use that increased engagement.
And there we found that the word you was really helpful.
Posts that used you got more attention, more engagement, more likes, more comments.
And part of the reason why is you sort of acts as a stop sign.
You're scrolling through content or, you know, reading a feed,
you feels like it's speaking directly to you.
And so your radar goes up, you pay attention, and you're more dialed in.
And so we thought, okay, you is great.
But then I did an analysis of their customer support pages.
So think about when you have an issue with your computer or your phone or your printer,
whatever it might be, you go to customer support, the website content,
it gives you some helpful tips.
And then people at the end often rate how helpful this content is.
And so we thought, well, great, if you is useful for engagement,
you should be helpful here as well.
But there it wasn't helpful.
There actually you was bad, had made things less helpful.
And what we realized is you, yes, can act like a stop sign and grab attention.
But if you're already on customer support, they already have your attention.
And the problem there is that you can suggest that it's your problem, right?
If your phone is broken, you should do these things.
Well, hold on, why is it my job to do these things?
Isn't it the company's phone that broke, right?
Why is it my responsibility to take care of this?
Why am I the one who has to take the agency?
Why am I the one that's responsible?
And so I see all these things as bucketed under kind of the language of identity and agency.
Language tells us who's in charge, who's in control for better or worse,
and what it means to engage in a particular action.
So in the case where you doesn't make a lot of sense, what would be the substitute?
I can help this, you, I will do this for you or...
Well, a few things, right?
If the phone is broken, do this.
If the computer doesn't reboot, do this.
There are ways to not suggest that it's someone's responsibility.
What about the dog example, would you say to your spouse?
Has the dog...
Shall we take the dog out for a walk?
Has the dog gotten a walk today?
Ah.
And I'm not saying it's your responsibility.
Right.
Literally what I'm asking, right?
Because think about it, when I say, have you walked the dog?
Yes.
If we're already in an argument or something,
or we've had a little disagreement earlier today,
it can sound like, why is it my job to walk the dog?
What do you mean did I walk the dog?
It's not my job, it's not my responsibility.
If you instead say, hey, did the dog get a walk?
What you're clear about is, I don't care whether you walk the dog or not.
I don't think it's your responsibility.
I just want to make sure they're not going to go to the bathroom on the carpet
because they got a chance to go outside.
And so by subtly changing the language we use,
we can increase even personal interactions more effectively.
So for everybody who's listening, who has a service side of your marketing,
which so much does in social marketing,
we're dealing with private messages from customers all the time,
by simply asking, like I was on the phone today with a customer service rep
because my internet went down, right?
And the gentleman could have said, has the router been restarted?
Instead of, have you restarted the router, right?
I mean, that's a great example of exploring something
in a way that is not tied to me having to take the action.
That's really what I'm hearing you say.
You have to know the context in which you're delivering it, right?
Yeah. And I think customer service agents are often trying to be helpful, right?
Or at least that's their job.
And so they think that the word you is going to be useful in that case.
But you're sitting there going, man, I sat on hold for 15 minutes.
My internet's been down.
It's a big, you know, bump in my day, getting in the way of a lot of things.
And now you're telling me I need to do this thing.
It's your fault. Why don't you take care of it?
And so even in that situation, yous can be important.
But also things like I versus we.
So, you know, as a customer service agent, I can say,
I can fix your problem or we can fix your problem.
Lots of research shows that companies tend to think that we is a good idea.
Right? We say something like we, it sounds like we're a large organization.
We're going to help you.
But it turns out when people hear we, they say, okay, who is this we?
And are you actually going to solve my problem?
Whereas when the agent says, I'm going to take care of that, we say, okay,
this person's actually going to do the work to get it done.
And so it's not just about you.
Even other types of pronouns like I's and we's impact something like customer satisfaction.
Outstanding. Okay, let's zoom in on another one of the letters in your acronym, CONCRETE-ness.
What does that mean?
And then we can dig in on some examples.
A good way to think about CONCRETE-ness is concrete things tend to be things we can physically experience.
We can touch a table.
We can smell cookies.
We can see a door.
All of those are physical things in our environment.
And insight is not very concrete.
It's a great thing.
Insight is good to have, but we can't touch insight.
We can't feel insight.
Similarly, the word soon, okay, that's a little abstract.
What does that mean?
Tomorrow's very concrete.
I know what tomorrow means.
And so a few years ago, we were interested in customer service and kind of what language agents use to increase satisfaction.
I mentioned one thing already.
The difference between I and we and the use of you.
But in particular, I had this experience where I was flying to work with a client.
I had done my sort of consulting project for the day.
I was headed back home in an Uber on the way to the airport.
And I get the text message, which every traveler dreads, which is, you know, your flight has been delayed.
We've rebooked you.
And they very nicely rebooked me rather than on direct flight, a connecting flight, you know, the afternoon of the next day, which was terrible.
So I'm frustrated.
I call up customer service.
You know, I'm trying to get them to change something.
They end up being reasonably helpful, but not that helpful.
And I get off the phone and I'm sort of, you know, pissed about it.
And the very nice driver goes, oh, you know, you seemed like you had a difficult customer service call.
And I said, yes.
And he said, oh, you know, it's really funny.
My daughter works in customer service.
I was talking about how she must have a difficult job, how difficult that much be.
He said, no, she loves it.
In fact, she's so good at it that now she trains other people in terms of how to do it better.
And I was sitting there as a scientist going, what does she do that works?
I mean, we all know what when you call the customer service, you want the Internet to be fixed.
When I called, I want a better flight.
Beyond solving our problems, though, right, which is is possible or not, can they make us feel better about how it's going based on on the language that they use?
And so colleague Grant Packard and I got thousands of customer service interactions, whether by phone or email, parse the language to figure out language that was more impactful.
And we found this idea of concreteness was really important.
And so to give you an example, you know, rather than saying, hey, your refund will be there soon, your money will be there tomorrow.
Rather than saying, I'll go look for that, I'll go check if we have those shoes in a size 11.
Right. Using really specific, concrete language shows someone that that you're listening.
And I think this is a point that actually goes much beyond customer service.
Often as as leaders, as individuals that are trying to show others we care, we want to show that we heard them.
Right. Not just that we're sort of shaking our butt.
I heard you. I really heard what you said.
But it's difficult to communicate that often as customer service agents.
You know, they're trained to say, oh, I thank you so much for your call or your call is important to us.
And as I think consumers, we sit there going, yeah, that's what you say.
But that's not actually what you mean.
If if my call is important to you, you'd pick up the phone faster.
And so how can we show listening?
Well, concreteness is a great way to do that.
Right. It not only shows that someone paid attention to what you said and understood what you said, but is going to take action based on it.
So because concreteness improves feelings of listening, it boosts customer satisfaction and it boosts subsequent purchase as well.
Well, and I would imagine this could also be used in the context of sales as well.
Right. You're talking to a prospect in some sort of medium.
Right. Maybe it's over DMs and Twitter or Instagram, or it could be over email or it could
even be over the phone. And when they tell you something specific, right, it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is you want to echo back a portion of it in your own words.
Right. You could probably flat out.
You don't have to say it this way.
I would imagine what I'm hearing you say is.
But you could say something along the lines of, so I am going to get the answer to your question about blank and get back to you by the end of the day.
Is that a good example?
Yeah. So I want to be a little careful in that there's a difference between mimicry, which is basically saying exactly what someone said and being concrete.
And there are benefits to mimicry.
There's mimicking others makes them feel like we're on the same team.
We have something in common.
And so, you know, it increases more of an acknowledgement with specifics.
Yeah. Even restating what they said in different words, but very specific words shows them that you heard them.
It's really easy if you're a customer service representative or if you're a salesperson to say, oh, I can help you with that.
Oh, we can solve that problem.
Oh, this addresses that.
Right. We sort of get these stock phrases that we roll out because it helps us.
They're almost like kind of Swiss Army language, right?
Whether someone's calling about a canceled flight or a lost bag or a problem with a pet, you know, I can say I'll help you with this and it fits.
The problem, though, is because it's not very concrete, because it's so abstract, it doesn't show them that I that I listen.
And so by actually picking up on what they've talked about, incorporating that in my response, but doing so in a really concrete way, it shows that I listened and makes them more satisfied.
OK, so this is really I'm going to try to say this in a different way.
Ideally, in a customer service situation, when someone has asked you for something that they need your help with, you should say I will help you and I will help you achieve blank, whatever the problem is.
And I plan to get back to you in a time bound period of time.
Right. I will get back to you within the hour, something specifically along those lines.
Is that what I'm hearing you say?
Yeah. And it can be any soon is not so good.
An hour is much more concrete.
Or by the end of the day or tomorrow morning by nine.
I was recently talking to someone over email, said I'll get back to you early next week.
That's not really concrete.
Right. I don't know exactly what you mean.
Right. Saying I'll get back to you Tuesday afternoon shows me exactly.
It's much more concrete.
I have a sense or an expectation of what you're going to do.
And so whether it's sales, whether it's customer service, even some data suggests in other contexts as well, concrete language can be can be really helpful.
Also make something more understandable.
Right. We did a big project looking at what holds attention in online content.
We found that concrete language encourages people to keep engaging and keep reading content.
Why? Because it's much more understandable.
Right. If you say something in a concrete way, I get what you're saying.
And it's easier to keep reading.
Is this mostly used in the context of one to one communications or can this be used in email marketing or any other kind of sense if it can, especially if it's like persuasive, like how can we be concrete in ways outside of customer service?
I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Yes. I mean, I was I was just mentioning some work we did looking at tens of thousands of online articles and looking at what holds attention, right.
What keeps people kind of scrolling or reading what they're seeing?
And I think this is a big challenge for marketers in a variety of areas.
We send out a lot of emails and because of certain metrics, we focus a lot on clicks.
Did someone open? I recently sent some emails out to my list.
What was the open rate? Is it above this?
We're doing a good job. Similarly, how many clicks did we get?
But we don't just want people to open our email.
Right. We want people to read it.
We don't want people just to click on something.
We want them to do something further once once they've done it.
So the challenge with kind of the clickbait world that we've moved towards is there's a lot of incentives to write something that gets people in but doesn't hold their attention.
But in most cases in marketing, you know, we don't just want to get people's attention, want to hold it.
I don't want them to click on the article or my email.
I want them to read that content.
We don't just want them to listen to the beginning of the pitch and tune out.
We want them to stay tuned for for the rest of it.
And so concrete language can can help with that.
It makes it easier to understand what we're saying.
It makes our audience have less work to do.
And so because of that, they're more likely to take action at the end.
So in that kind of context, I'm curious, maybe you could give me an example of how that might work if you were emailing a bunch of your students or I was emailing a bunch of my audience specifically about maybe my conference or something like what would be an example of non concrete language?
You know, just or I just want to because the customer service side makes total mental sense to me.
You know what I mean?
Yeah. Preorder this book and we've got some great stuff for you.
That's definitely not concrete language.
Yeah. I don't know what stuff is.
Right. Right.
If I say, hey, I've got three things for you.
I've got you know, I'll give you this guide, this other thing.
It tells me exactly what I'm getting.
It's very specific.
Got it.
And so it's less abstract and more concrete.
Got it.
So all right, that's perfect.
So we're going to explore now another one of the C's.
But just to be clear, what we've gone over so far is we just did concreteness.
And before that, we did agency and identity classified under the A for agency.
Now, confidence.
This is a fascinating one.
I think I know what it means, but I'm not 100 percent sure.
So what does confidence mean in the context of what we're talking about here?
I think many of us have this belief that certain people are just more charismatic.
Right. We have a friend who, you know, when they talk, everybody listens.
Where there's a colleague at work that, you know, when when they get up there and
they're speaking, they're just so good at it, everybody, everybody sort of pays
attention and does what what they want, want them to do.
And so we have this notion that kind of people are born with charisma.
Either they have it or they don't.
But when you look under the surface a little bit, a lot of individuals that are,
quote unquote, charismatic leaders or a lot of people that others tend to listen
to, they tend to speak with a lot of certainty.
They tend to speak with a lot of confidence.
Right.
It's not that something might happen or this could work.
This will definitely happen.
You know, this is certainly the best course of action.
You know, I have no question that we should do X, X, Y, Z.
They speak with a great deal of certainty and confidence.
And because of that, we often take their advice.
Fascinating. You know, I think about the doctor's office, right?
Like a lot of times doctors seem to speak with confidence after they've diagnosed
whatever you've gone in there for.
Right. I mean, like, I don't know if they're the best example of speaking with
confidence, but that's what came to my mind while you were talking.
And I think I speak with confidence because generally speaking, when I do speak, I
feel like I don't leave a lot of wiggle room.
Like I'm pretty clear in what I believe the best course of action to be.
But not everybody is like me, you know, so like let's talk.
Let's talk about like how in the world do we even concrete practices?
Yeah, exactly.
So even in the sentence you just and the fun thing about thinking about language has
become a little bit of a language detective.
Right. You probably see some stuff in there.
Yeah. But even as you started talking, right, you were like, I feel like.
Right. That's an example of what we call a hedge.
Ah. So you didn't say I am this.
You said I feel like I am this.
And so we can use words like probably might could possibly.
But also I think it seems to me I believe I feel all of those are examples of
hedges. All those are in some sense types of language that we use words or phrases
to soften. I mean, we use them all the time.
I am terrible at this.
Academics are the worst.
Right. Academics often say I said that with confidence, by the way, I'm trying to
get better. I don't do a very good job of it.
Academics are terrible.
Right. You listen to most academics being quoted in the news.
And they said, I think this might happen.
And it's like by the time they get done, you would say, well, why would I listen to
you if you're not even sure yourself?
Well, and you know what? Let's pause for a second.
A lot of us have been trained as we were younger not to be overly talking about
ourself. Right. So we are trying to be.
What's the right word? We're trying to be like not so proud now.
Yeah, we're trying to be humble.
Well, but let's be careful. There's a difference between being humble.
Right. And being certain.
Right. Those are two they're related, but they're separate things.
Right. So first of all, what I would say, just finishing up the hedge bid is hedges
reduce our impact.
Right. The problem is people are less likely to listen to us because they think we're
less confident. And that's why it goes back to this idea of confidence or certainty.
They're sitting there going, well, if you're hedging, you're not even sure that this is
the best course of action. You're not even sure that this is the right answer.
Right. If you're a salesperson, you say, I think this would work or, you know, this
might be the best thing. Well, if you're not even sure, why should I listen to you?
Because you seem less certain.
And so we have to be careful.
I'm not saying we should never hedge.
I actually think hedges are quite useful.
There are times where we want to communicate uncertainty, where we don't know something
for sure, but we at least need to be aware of that impact that we're having.
And there are also there are certain hedges that are signal more or less certainty and
can be used accordingly.
OK, so how do we speak with confidence without using hedges?
And by the way, just to be clear, let's redefine a hedge is when you choose to say I could
be I might be you're using these descriptors, for lack of better words, to kind of not declare
yourself as any one particular thing.
Like I didn't say I am I have great confidence.
I didn't say that.
I said, I feel like I have a lot of confidence.
Right. You hedged.
Yeah, I had some uncertainty.
Yeah. And by doing that, that's questionable to the recipient.
Right. Well, maybe I shouldn't listen to what he says.
This is the best glass or really cup you will ever have in your entire life.
It sounds like I'm pretty confident this might be the best cup you could buy.
Well, now it sounds like I'm less confident.
And so might is an example of hedges, I think is an example of a hedge.
But what we've been talking about, kind of two different types of hedges, and they're
important to separate.
One is what I'll call general hedges.
Might could possibly another personal hedges.
I think I feel not just it seems, but it seems to me.
Right. When you say it seems like something is true, you're saying generally there's
some uncertainty here.
When you're saying it seems to me you're associating it with with yourself.
And what I think is kind of interesting here is, is if we had to guess, I think we would
say when we bring ourselves into it, that must make it worse.
Right. Because it seems like it's our own personal opinion.
I bet you makes it better, though, doesn't it?
Right.
Why are you thinking it makes it better?
Because it's just my opinion now.
But you seem confident of that opinion.
So, yes, it is your opinion, but you are confident in that opinion.
You're saying, I think you're willing to take yourself and associate it with that
opinion.
This cup, I think this cup is the best.
Right. Well, maybe you don't think it's the best, but I clearly think it's the best.
Well, and we were talking about restaurant examples, right?
Weren't we when we were chatting last time about how when there's a waitress in the
restaurant and she might or he might say, I think the steak tonight is the best.
Right. We're probably going to listen to that.
Yeah. And compare that with the steak might be the best.
Yeah.
Both of those are hedges, right?
Both of those suggest some uncertainty, but you're much more likely to take their advice
if they say, I think the steak is best because they seem more confident.
And so what I would say is if we're going to hedge and we want to communicate uncertainty,
sometimes we need to write.
We can't say something is certain because it either makes us seem bad or maybe we're
not so certain.
So we want to communicate uncertainty, but we can at least do it in a way that's more
impactful because it doesn't undermine people's sense of confidence in us.
So we got the hedge thing down pretty good.
Let's talk about confidence when it comes to present tense.
And I believe this is something past tense and present sense that we were talking, we
were prepping.
You can say something like, I liked this restaurant or I like this restaurant.
I thought that candidate did a good job or I thought that candidate does a good job.
We can use present tense, right?
I like this restaurant or past tense.
I liked this restaurant to talk about our opinions in a variety of different situations.
And there are certainly some situations where something happened in the past or the present,
and we need to refer to it that way.
But in many cases, like when we're saying my feelings towards a restaurant, we could
say I liked the food or I like the food.
Both of those are things we could say.
Well, it turns out that present tense, using that present tense, I like the restaurant
is much more persuasive.
Why?
Because it makes us seem more confident.
If you said, I liked this restaurant, it seems like, oh, yeah, when you went there, the time
that you went where I liked the food, the food was good.
You thought the food was good.
If on the other hand, you say, I like the food, right, or the food is good rather than
the food was good, right?
If I say the food was good, it seems like that time I went, the food was good.
The food is good.
It seems like I'm making a general statement, right?
Not only was the food good the time I went, but the food will be good now and forever
more for anyone who tries it.
And because I'm willing to make that general statement, people think I'm more confident
about what I'm saying.
I'm making an assertion, right?
I'm not just saying I thought the food was good, but I'm making an assertion that you
will probably like the food as well when you go in the future.
Okay.
So if we want to communicate confidence in any of our communications, first of all, we
need to be aware of the hedges, right?
This could be, I could be, forget the hedges, right?
And secondly, whenever possible, speak about your feelings in the present tense instead
of the past tense.
Is there any other way that we can exude confidence beyond just the tense and the hedge?
Because I'm thinking to myself, there's got to be, maybe it's the way we communicate.
I don't know.
I mean, I'm just curious because there is something that's hard to trigger.
You know, someone is confident.
You can see it.
You can sense it.
But sometimes I can't like reverse engineer why I feel like that person is confident.
Yeah.
I mean, there are a few more things, right?
So one is they often respond quickly.
Okay.
So if you ask me a question, you just did, and I sit there going, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not very confident in my answer, right?
Whereas if I say, oh, yep, here's what it is right away.
Now I seem more confident, right?
I play a little bit of poker.
Once a month, I play poker with some friends, right?
And if you ever play poker, you know, you use response speed as a signal for confidence.
If someone responds quickly, uh-oh, they seem like they're pretty confident.
Unless they're faking it, they seem pretty confident.
They're quick to raise.
They're hemming and hawing.
Well, they're probably not sure.
And so something like response speed, but also the extremity of what we say, right?
If I say the food was good or the food was excellent, right?
Well, I seem pretty, if I'm willing to go so far as to make an extreme judgment,
this is the best product you could ever buy.
This service will solve all of your problems, right?
I'm using language that suggests I am super sure of what I'm saying.
And if I seem super sure of what I'm saying, well, you're probably more likely to listen.
So do you feel like when we use the right words in the right way,
we can incrementally improve the likelihood that we'll get what we want?
I mean, because the book is called What to Say to Get Your Way, right?
That's the subtitle, Magic Words, What to Say to Get Your Way.
Yeah.
Do you believe it's as simple as literally just becoming more aware of the words that we
say in all the different mediums and just consistently using them and watching the
responses that we get and that we can incrementally improve?
I think to a little bit of analogy here with baseball.
I'm testing your confidence, by the way.
And a batting average.
I think often we tend to think that certain people are just good at this stuff.
They're born this way, right?
They are a good speaker.
They are a good writer.
They are charismatic.
I wish I could be that person, but I am not.
And it's not so fixed.
It's much more malleable, right?
If we understand the power of words and how to use words, we can all increase our impact
in whatever situation we're in.
Now, to go back to that baseball idea, though, right?
If someone understands the science of hitting, do they hit a home run every time?
No.
If someone understands they're better at basketball, do they score every time they shoot?
No, they don't.
But they score more often, right?
They get on base more often.
And so that's exactly what I think these types of things are, right?
You know, can I guarantee you use one word tomorrow and your entire life changes?
No.
Can I guarantee that if you use these words in the right way, you will move in the right
direction in a significant way?
Yes.
Lots of academic research has shown these things.
And that's what I love about a book like this is, you know, behind all the things we're
talking about, there are dozens of academic studies that have shown this in a variety
of different contexts.
And so we know it's going to have a significant impact in the domains we're interested in.
Hey, I've got some exciting news for you.
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The book is magic words, Jonah Berger, B-E-R-G-E-R.
I imagine you could get it anywhere that you get books.
Is there a special website you want to send people to if they want to check out your speaking
and consulting and or book?
And also, is there a preferred social platform if people want to connect with you online?
Yeah, thank you.
So the book is available wherever books are sold.
You can find me at jonaberger.com, just my name.com.
And I'm on both LinkedIn and Twitter at J1 Berger.
J1 B-E-R-G-E-R.
J1, J, the number one B-E-R-G-E-R.
I wasn't there first, so I couldn't get J-B-E-R-G-E-R, but I'm often J1 B-E-R-G-E-R.
Jonah, thank you so much for answering all my questions and giving us a sneak peek into
awesomeness that's inside your book.
We're better because of it.
Thanks so much for having me back.
I appreciate it.
If you missed anything, we took all the notes for you over at socialmediaexaminer.com slash
554.
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I'm at Stelzner on Instagram and at Mike underscore Stelzner on Twitter.
This brings us to the end of yet another episode of the Social Media Marketing Podcast.
I'm your host, Michael Stelzner.
I'll be back with you next week.
I promise.
I hope you make the best out of your day and may social media continue to change your world.
The Social Media Marketing Podcast is a production of Social Media Examiner.
