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Moyers on Democracy podcast, PODCAST: Bill Moyers and Heather Cox Richardson (1)

PODCAST: Bill Moyers and Heather Cox Richardson (1)

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy. President Trump urged his followers to come to Washington for a “big protest” on January 6th. He wanted their help in reversing the results of the election he lost. “Be there,” he said.“ (It) will be wild.” And they came. By the thousands, they came, and sure enough, it was not only “wild,” as the President had promised, it was worse. Much worse. The protesters became a mob, stormed the US Capitol, drove the vice president and members of the House and Senate out of their chambers, and turned a day meant for celebrating democracy into a riot that sought to overturn a free and fair election. Across the country and around the world people watched, horrified, dumbfounded and disbelieving, as insurrection incited by the president of the United States and his Republican enablers struck at the very centerpiece of American governance. Here's Bill Moyers, to talk about that day with the historian Heather Cox Richardson.

BILL MOYERS: Good morning Heather, glad you could join me.

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: It's always a pleasure.

BILL MOYERS: It's the morning after what happened in Washington, the insurrection. Did you believe your eyes when you were watching those events unfold on the screen?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I believed them and I wept. And I am not exaggerating. Seeing that Confederate flag, which had never flown in the Capitol during the Civil War, and it had never flown in the Capitol in the 1870s, and it had never flown in the Capitol during the second rise of KKK in the 1920s, going through our people's government house in 2021– the blow that that means for those of us who understand exactly what was at stake in the Confederacy. That image for me, of the flag being carried through the halls was, I think, my lowest moment as an American.

BILL MOYERS: Interesting because I kept seeing the flags all afternoon: the Confederate flag, American flags flying upside down. Flags with the name “Jesus” on them, “Jesus saves,” “Jesus 2020.” A big, burly protester carrying a flag on a baseball bat that seemed as big as his arms. He paused long enough just to give the camera and us a middle finger. Joe Biden keeps saying, this isn't America. It's not who we are, but it is America. This kind of character and this kind of conflict and this kind of meanness are a big part of our history. Is there any hope for Biden's aspiration to unite us again?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: These people have always been in our society. And they always will be in our society. What makes this moment different is that we have a president who is actively inciting them in order to destroy our democracy. We certainly have had presidents who incited these sorts of people before for one end or another. But at the end of the day, every president until now has believed in democracy. And this one does not. He wants to get rid of democracy and replace it with an oligarchy that puts him and his family at the top. The same sort of way that we have oligarchies in Russia now, for example. Biden cannot combat these people alone. This is a moment for Americans who care about our democracy and who care about returning to our fundamental principles. And finally, making them come to life to speak up, to push back, to insist on accountability and to recognize that we are, in fact, struggling for the survival of our country, not simply talking about, “Oh, I like this politician” or, “I like that politician.” And if we do that, will we win? Absolutely. But making people do that and getting people to understand how important that is is going to be a battle. And it's one that, by the way, we've been in before, and lost. This is the same sort of battle we fought at the end of Reconstruction, when most Americans sort of went “Whatever.” And we ended up with a one-party state in the American South for generations. And that is exactly the sort of thing that they are trying to make happen across America itself.

We are, in fact, struggling for the survival of our country, not simply talking about, ‘Oh, I like this politician' or, ‘I like that politician.'

BILL MOYERS: What do you think happens to those we saw on the screen yesterday, those who invaded the Capitol, the core of our congressional system? What do you think happens to them when they discover that Trump and the Republican Party have been lying to them? That the election wasn't rigged, it wasn't a hoax. What do they do?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: A lot of them will never realize that. You know your psychological studies. A lot of what we used to call brainwashing can't be undone and won't be undone. And they will go to their graves believing that this was a stolen election. But some, and you could see them on their faces yesterday, some people sort of went, “Well, wait a minute. This was supposed to be the storm. We were supposed to be having a revolution. And it didn't happen. We got into the Capitol building. We did our part, and there was nobody there to greet us and to help us take over.” And what's interesting in a moment like that is there are two things to do: you can go deeper into your delusion, or you can turn on the people who took you there in a really powerful and passionate way. And this is one of the reasons this moment is so fraught is a lot of people might be waking up and going, “Wait a minute. They lied to us. They changed their minds last night and they made Biden president.” And you can see if you're watching QAnon. They're sort of saying, “Well, wait a minute. I'm sure Trump has an even deeper plan.” Which, of course, puts him in a bind because he can't now say, “Oh, never mind. I didn't mean this,” because then he's going to lose their loyalty. So, we're in this fraught moment. But I think people will either go ahead and continue to believe and this will a rump group that we are going to have to be dealing with for many, many years. Or some of them will become some of our most vocal opponents of people like Trump.

BILL MOYERS: Seventy million people are not really a rump group, are they? They constitute a sizable portion of the American population. You think they'll drift away, those who are just seeing Trump as a sort of spokesman for their grievances and someone who could put the establishment on notice? Or are they in this for the long run?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I think it's really important to distinguish between people who voted Republican in the last election and people who actually stormed the Capitol yesterday. For all that we saw yesterday was horrific and the rioters that protested outside of some state capitals, there really weren't that many of them. And a lot of people who went ahead and voted Republican would not have endorsed what happened yesterday. So, the thing that I am watching is the fact that so many people will vote for their political party no matter what it does. And one of the things, as you know, that I've talked about for a long time is Republicans stepping in and reclaiming their party because I think they really could steer some of those Republican voters back into the American mainstream. And you can see that battle going on at this very moment as there's this dramatic split between the formerly establishment Republicans who went ahead and supported Trump for all these years. People like former Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell from Kentucky, or the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee Lindsey Graham. Or many of the other establishment Republicans who have stepped in and said, no, we're not going to go ahead and pretend that Donald Trump won this election. He did not. And you can see them trying to take back the Republican Party and move it back away from the QAnon supporters, away from the Trump supporters. And then you see the Trump supporters taking their own off-ramp into a more radical direction. And if that split really happens, I worry a lot less about those 70 million people because I think they will vote Republican. Not a lot of them will end up going down what is absolutely a neo-Nazi, white supremacist direction.

BILL MOYERS: But as I watched, I was taken with a couple of still photographs of the members of Congress after the invaders got inside, who were being evacuated. They got their gas masks out from underneath their desk and began to proceed. Three in a row that I saw were what I would call political agitators from within. They were people who supported Trump's argument that the election was a hoax and was rigged. And they had the most bewildered look on their faces as to what was happening. And as I watched, I got angry with all those people who stoked the fires of dissent and, when it got out of control, acted surprised, like those members of Congress who were being led out. But once you whip up fury with people you've lied to, you can't just brush them off with a shrug of your shoulder. And you can't just say, I have no responsibility for what happened. I only asked those people to vote for me. I didn't ask them to attack the Capitol. What happens to those members of Congress, those political figures who actually encouraged what happened yesterday indirectly by agreeing with and embracing Trump's lies that the election was a fraud? What happens to them?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, of course, they were making the calculation that it was worth supporting what Trump was alleging because they wanted to pick up his base for elections in 2022 or 2024. And that's exactly what Josh Hawley was doing, the senator from Missouri who went ahead and signed early on to supporting the House Republicans who were going to challenge Biden's electoral votes. And then, of course, Ted Cruz from Texas jumped on board because he's terrified that Hawley was going to undercut him for the 2024 nomination. So, to them, it was a game. It was a calculation. You know, “Biden's going to get the presidency. We know he won it fair and square. Trump has lost all of his lawsuits. This is a really safe way to go ahead and signal that I'm going to honor him, and I'll pick up his voters.” And to them, it was a game. And what they discovered pretty quickly was, it wasn't a game to the people to whom they had seemed to promise their loyalty. Josh Hawley is done because that photograph of him making the power sign to the rioters, yeah. His career is done. And Ted Cruz is also in a terrible spot because, if you recall the timing, he had given a really incendiary speech while they were already marching toward the Capitol. So last night, those two senators doubled down because they really don't have anywhere else they can go. But it was interesting to see the people who hadn't been that exposed took the off-ramp. Yesterday morning, 14 senators said that they were going to object to the counting of electoral votes from Arizona, which is one of the states that Trump said he was contesting. But by the time the vote actually happened last night, only six of them went ahead and objected to it. But you can see them going, I didn't mean that. I didn't want to be part of that.


PODCAST: Bill Moyers and Heather Cox Richardson (1) PODCAST: Bill Moyers und Heather Cox Richardson (1) ポッドキャストビル・モイヤーズとヘザー・コックス・リチャードソン (1) PODCAST: Bill Moyers e Heather Cox Richardson (1)

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy. President Trump urged his followers to come to Washington for a “big protest” on January 6th. He wanted their help in reversing the results of the election he lost. “Be there,” he said.“ (It) will be wild.” And they came. By the thousands, they came, and sure enough, it was not only “wild,” as the President had promised, it was worse. Par milliers, ils sont venus, et bien sûr, ce n'était pas seulement "sauvage", comme le président l'avait promis, c'était pire. Much worse. The protesters became a mob, stormed the US Capitol, drove the vice president and members of the House and Senate out of their chambers, and turned a day meant for celebrating democracy into a riot that sought to overturn a free and fair election. Les manifestants sont devenus une foule, ont pris d'assaut le Capitole des États-Unis, ont chassé le vice-président et les membres de la Chambre et du Sénat de leurs chambres et ont transformé une journée destinée à célébrer la démocratie en une émeute qui cherchait à renverser une élection libre et équitable. Протестующие превратились в толпу, штурмовали Капитолий США, выгнали вице-президента, членов Палаты представителей и Сената из своих палат и превратили день, предназначенный для празднования демократии, в бунт, направленный на отмену свободных и справедливых выборов. Across the country and around the world people watched, horrified, dumbfounded and disbelieving, as insurrection incited by the president of the United States and his Republican enablers struck at the very centerpiece of American governance. Partout au pays et dans le monde entier, les gens ont regardé, horrifiés, abasourdis et incrédules, l'insurrection incitée par le président des États-Unis et ses facilitateurs républicains à frapper la pièce maîtresse de la gouvernance américaine. Here's Bill Moyers, to talk about that day with the historian Heather Cox Richardson.

BILL MOYERS: Good morning Heather, glad you could join me.

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: It's always a pleasure.

BILL MOYERS: It's the morning after what happened in Washington, the insurrection. Did you believe your eyes when you were watching those events unfold on the screen? Вы верили своим глазам, когда наблюдали, как эти события разворачиваются на экране?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I believed them and I wept. And I am not exaggerating. Seeing that Confederate flag, which had never flown in the Capitol during the Civil War, and it had never flown in the Capitol in the 1870s, and it had never flown in the Capitol during the second rise of KKK in the 1920s, going through our people's government house in 2021– the blow that that means for those of us who understand exactly what was at stake in the Confederacy. Voyant ce drapeau confédéré, qui n'avait jamais flotté sur le Capitole pendant la guerre civile, et il n'avait jamais flotté au Capitole dans les années 1870, et il n'avait jamais flotté au Capitole lors de la deuxième montée du KKK dans les années 1920, en passant par notre la maison du gouvernement du peuple en 2021 - le coup que cela signifie pour ceux d'entre nous qui comprennent exactement ce qui était en jeu dans la Confédération. Видя этот флаг Конфедерации, который никогда не развевался в Капитолии во время Гражданской войны, и он никогда не развевался в Капитолии в 1870-х годах, и он никогда не развевался в Капитолии во время второго подъема KKK в 1920-х годах, проходя через наши Дом правительства народа в 2021 году - это удар, который это означает для тех из нас, кто точно понимает, что было поставлено на карту в Конфедерации. That image for me, of the flag being carried through the halls was, I think, my lowest moment as an American. Cette image pour moi, du drapeau porté dans les couloirs était, je pense, mon moment le plus bas en tant qu'Américain.

BILL MOYERS: Interesting because I kept seeing the flags all afternoon: the Confederate flag, American flags flying upside down. BILL MOYERS : Intéressant parce que j'ai continué à voir les drapeaux tout l'après-midi : le drapeau confédéré, les drapeaux américains flottant à l'envers. Flags with the name “Jesus” on them, “Jesus saves,” “Jesus 2020.” A big, burly protester carrying a flag on a baseball bat that seemed as big as his arms. Drapeaux avec le nom « Jésus » dessus, « Jésus sauve », « Jésus 2020 ». Un grand manifestant costaud portant un drapeau sur une batte de baseball qui semblait aussi grosse que ses bras. He paused long enough just to give the camera and us a middle finger. Joe Biden keeps saying, this isn't America. It's not who we are, but it is America. This kind of character and this kind of conflict and this kind of meanness are a big part of our history. Ce genre de personnage et ce genre de conflit et ce genre de méchanceté sont une grande partie de notre histoire. Is there any hope for Biden's aspiration to unite us again?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: These people have always been in our society. And they always will be in our society. What makes this moment different is that we have a president who is actively inciting them in order to destroy our democracy. We certainly have had presidents who incited these sorts of people before for one end or another. Конечно, у нас были президенты, которые раньше подстрекали таких людей к тому или иному делу. But at the end of the day, every president until now has believed in democracy. And this one does not. He wants to get rid of democracy and replace it with an oligarchy that puts him and his family at the top. The same sort of way that we have oligarchies in Russia now, for example. Biden cannot combat these people alone. This is a moment for Americans who care about our democracy and who care about returning to our fundamental principles. And finally, making them come to life to speak up, to push back, to insist on accountability and to recognize that we are, in fact, struggling for the survival of our country, not simply talking about, “Oh, I like this politician” or, “I like that politician.” And if we do that, will we win? Et enfin, les faire prendre vie pour s'exprimer, pour repousser, pour insister sur la responsabilité et pour reconnaître que nous luttons, en fait, pour la survie de notre pays, pas simplement en disant : « Oh, j'aime ce politicien » ou « J'aime ce politicien. » Et si on fait ça, va-t-on gagner ? И, наконец, заставляя их оживать, чтобы высказаться, дать отпор, настоять на ответственности и признать, что мы на самом деле боремся за выживание нашей страны, а не просто говорим: «О, мне нравится этот политик. "Или" Мне нравится этот политик ". И если мы это сделаем, выиграем ли мы? Absolutely. But making people do that and getting people to understand how important that is is going to be a battle. And it's one that, by the way, we've been in before, and lost. Et c'en est un dans lequel, au fait, nous avons déjà été et perdu. This is the same sort of battle we fought at the end of Reconstruction, when most Americans sort of went “Whatever.” And we ended up with a one-party state in the American South for generations. C'est le même genre de bataille que nous avons menée à la fin de la Reconstruction, lorsque la plupart des Américains ont en quelque sorte dit « Peu importe ». Et nous nous sommes retrouvés avec un État à parti unique dans le sud des États-Unis pendant des générations. Это та же битва, которую мы вели в конце Реконструкции, когда большинство американцев как бы пошло «как угодно». И в результате на протяжении многих поколений на американском Юге образовалось однопартийное государство. And that is exactly the sort of thing that they are trying to make happen across America itself. Et c'est exactement le genre de chose qu'ils essaient de faire se produire à travers l'Amérique elle-même. И это именно то, что они пытаются осуществить по всей Америке.

We are, in fact, struggling for the survival of our country, not simply talking about, ‘Oh, I like this politician' or, ‘I like that politician.'

BILL MOYERS: What do you think happens to those we saw on the screen yesterday, those who invaded the Capitol, the core of our congressional system? What do you think happens to them when they discover that Trump and the Republican Party have been lying to them? That the election wasn't rigged, it wasn't a hoax. Que l'élection n'ait pas été truquée, ce n'était pas un canular. What do they do?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: A lot of them will never realize that. You know your psychological studies. A lot of what we used to call brainwashing can't be undone and won't be undone. Beaucoup de ce que nous appelions le lavage de cerveau ne peut pas être annulé et ne le sera pas. Многое из того, что мы привыкли называть «промыванием мозгов», нельзя отменить и нельзя отменить. And they will go to their graves believing that this was a stolen election. But some, and you could see them on their faces yesterday, some people sort of went, “Well, wait a minute. This was supposed to be the storm. C'était censé être la tempête. We were supposed to be having a revolution. And it didn't happen. We got into the Capitol building. We did our part, and there was nobody there to greet us and to help us take over.” And what's interesting in a moment like that is there are two things to do: you can go deeper into your delusion, or you can turn on the people who took you there in a really powerful and passionate way. Nous avons fait notre part et il n'y avait personne pour nous accueillir et nous aider à prendre le relais. Et ce qui est intéressant dans un moment comme celui-là, c'est qu'il y a deux choses à faire : vous pouvez approfondir votre illusion, ou vous pouvez allumer les gens qui vous y ont emmené d'une manière vraiment puissante et passionnée. Мы сделали свою часть работы, и никого не было, чтобы поприветствовать нас и помочь нам взять на себя ответственность ». И что интересно в такой момент, так это то, что нужно сделать две вещи: вы можете глубже погрузиться в свое заблуждение или можете повернуть против людей, которые привели вас туда, действительно сильным и страстным образом. And this is one of the reasons this moment is so fraught is a lot of people might be waking up and going, “Wait a minute. They lied to us. They changed their minds last night and they made Biden president.” And you can see if you're watching QAnon. They're sort of saying, “Well, wait a minute. I'm sure Trump has an even deeper plan.” Which, of course, puts him in a bind because he can't now say, “Oh, never mind. Je suis sûr que Trump a un plan encore plus profond. Ce qui, bien sûr, le met dans une impasse parce qu'il ne peut pas maintenant dire : « Oh, peu importe. I didn't mean this,” because then he's going to lose their loyalty. Je ne voulais pas dire cela », parce qu'alors il va perdre leur loyauté. So, we're in this fraught moment. Donc, nous sommes dans ce moment difficile. But I think people will either go ahead and continue to believe and this will a rump group that we are going to have to be dealing with for many, many years. Mais je pense que les gens iront de l'avant et continueront à croire et ce sera un groupe croupion avec lequel nous devrons faire face pendant de nombreuses années. Но я думаю, что люди либо пойдут дальше, либо продолжат верить, и это будет большая группа, с которой нам придется иметь дело много-много лет. Or some of them will become some of our most vocal opponents of people like Trump. Ou certains d'entre eux deviendront certains de nos adversaires les plus virulents de gens comme Trump.

BILL MOYERS: Seventy million people are not really a rump group, are they? БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: Семьдесят миллионов человек на самом деле не большая группа, не так ли? They constitute a sizable portion of the American population. You think they'll drift away, those who are just seeing Trump as a sort of spokesman for their grievances and someone who could put the establishment on notice? Vous pensez qu'ils vont s'éloigner, ceux qui ne voient dans Trump qu'une sorte de porte-parole de leurs doléances et quelqu'un qui pourrait alerter l'establishment ? Or are they in this for the long run?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: I think it's really important to distinguish between people who voted Republican in the last election and people who actually stormed the Capitol yesterday. For all that we saw yesterday was horrific and the rioters that protested outside of some state capitals, there really weren't that many of them. Malgré tout ce que nous avons vu hier était horrible et les émeutiers qui ont manifesté à l'extérieur de certaines capitales d'État, il n'y en avait vraiment pas beaucoup. And a lot of people who went ahead and voted Republican would not have endorsed what happened yesterday. Et beaucoup de gens qui sont allés de l'avant et ont voté républicain n'auraient pas approuvé ce qui s'est passé hier. И многие люди, которые проголосовали за республиканцев, не одобрили бы то, что произошло вчера. So, the thing that I am watching is the fact that so many people will vote for their political party no matter what it does. Donc, ce que je regarde, c'est le fait que tant de gens voteront pour leur parti politique, peu importe ce qu'il fait. And one of the things, as you know, that I've talked about for a long time is Republicans stepping in and reclaiming their party because I think they really could steer some of those Republican voters back into the American mainstream. Et l'une des choses, comme vous le savez, dont je parle depuis longtemps, c'est que les républicains interviennent et réclament leur parti parce que je pense qu'ils pourraient vraiment ramener certains de ces électeurs républicains dans le courant dominant américain. And you can see that battle going on at this very moment as there's this dramatic split between the formerly establishment Republicans who went ahead and supported Trump for all these years. И вы можете видеть эту битву, происходящую именно в этот момент, поскольку есть драматический раскол между бывшими республиканцами из истеблишмента, которые шли вперед и поддерживали Трампа все эти годы. People like former Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell from Kentucky, or the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee Lindsey Graham. Des gens comme l'ancien chef de la majorité au Sénat, Mitch McConnell, du Kentucky, ou la présidente du comité judiciaire du Sénat, Lindsey Graham. Or many of the other establishment Republicans who have stepped in and said, no, we're not going to go ahead and pretend that Donald Trump won this election. He did not. And you can see them trying to take back the Republican Party and move it back away from the QAnon supporters, away from the Trump supporters. Et vous pouvez les voir essayer de reprendre le Parti républicain et de l'éloigner des partisans de QAnon, des partisans de Trump. And then you see the Trump supporters taking their own off-ramp into a more radical direction. Et puis vous voyez les partisans de Trump prendre leur propre sortie dans une direction plus radicale. And if that split really happens, I worry a lot less about those 70 million people because I think they will vote Republican. Et si cette scission se produit vraiment, je m'inquiète beaucoup moins pour ces 70 millions de personnes parce que je pense qu'elles voteront républicain. Not a lot of them will end up going down what is absolutely a neo-Nazi, white supremacist direction. Peu d'entre eux finiront par s'engager dans une direction absolument néo-nazie et suprémaciste blanche. Не многие из них в конечном итоге пойдут вниз по абсолютно неонацистскому, белому националистическому направлению.

BILL MOYERS: But as I watched, I was taken with a couple of still photographs of the members of Congress after the invaders got inside, who were being evacuated. BILL MOYERS: Mais pendant que je regardais, j'ai été pris avec quelques photographies fixes des membres du Congrès après l'entrée des envahisseurs à l'intérieur, qui étaient en train d'être évacués. They got their gas masks out from underneath their desk and began to proceed. Ils ont sorti leurs masques à gaz de sous leur bureau et ont commencé à avancer. Three in a row that I saw were what I would call political agitators from within. Trois d'affilée que j'ai vus étaient ce que j'appellerais des agitateurs politiques de l'intérieur. They were people who supported Trump's argument that the election was a hoax and was rigged. And they had the most bewildered look on their faces as to what was happening. And as I watched, I got angry with all those people who stoked the fires of dissent and, when it got out of control, acted surprised, like those members of Congress who were being led out. Et pendant que je regardais, je me suis mis en colère contre tous ces gens qui ont attisé les feux de la dissidence et, quand cela est devenu incontrôlable, ont agi avec surprise, comme ces membres du Congrès qui ont été emmenés. И пока я смотрел, я злился на всех тех людей, которые разжигали огонь инакомыслия, и, когда это вышло из-под контроля, действовал удивленно, как те члены Конгресса, которых выводили. But once you whip up fury with people you've lied to, you can't just brush them off with a shrug of your shoulder. Mais une fois que vous avez attisé la fureur contre les personnes à qui vous avez menti, vous ne pouvez pas simplement les repousser en haussant les épaules. And you can't just say, I have no responsibility for what happened. I only asked those people to vote for me. I didn't ask them to attack the Capitol. What happens to those members of Congress, those political figures who actually encouraged what happened yesterday indirectly by agreeing with and embracing Trump's lies that the election was a fraud? Qu'arrive-t-il à ces membres du Congrès, à ces personnalités politiques qui ont en fait encouragé indirectement ce qui s'est passé hier en acceptant et en adoptant les mensonges de Trump selon lesquels l'élection était une fraude ? What happens to them?

HEATHER COX RICHARDSON: Well, of course, they were making the calculation that it was worth supporting what Trump was alleging because they wanted to pick up his base for elections in 2022 or 2024. HEATHER COX RICHARDSON : Eh bien, bien sûr, ils calculaient que cela valait la peine de soutenir ce que Trump alléguait parce qu'ils voulaient prendre sa base pour les élections de 2022 ou 2024. ХИТЕР КОКС РИЧАРДСОН: Ну, конечно, они рассчитывали, что стоит поддержать то, что утверждал Трамп, потому что они хотели забрать его базу для выборов в 2022 или 2024 году. And that's exactly what Josh Hawley was doing, the senator from Missouri who went ahead and signed early on to supporting the House Republicans who were going to challenge Biden's electoral votes. Et c'est exactement ce que faisait Josh Hawley, le sénateur du Missouri qui est allé de l'avant et a signé très tôt pour soutenir les républicains de la Chambre qui allaient contester les votes électoraux de Biden. Именно это и делал Джош Хоули, сенатор от Миссури, который сразу же подписался на поддержку республиканцев в Палате представителей, которые собирались оспорить голоса выборщиков Байдена. And then, of course, Ted Cruz from Texas jumped on board because he's terrified that Hawley was going to undercut him for the 2024 nomination. Et puis, bien sûr, Ted Cruz du Texas a sauté à bord parce qu'il était terrifié à l'idée que Hawley allait le saper pour la nomination en 2024. И затем, конечно, Тед Круз из Техаса вскочил на борт, потому что он испугался, что Хоули собирается подрезать его для номинации 2024 года. So, to them, it was a game. It was a calculation. You know, “Biden's going to get the presidency. We know he won it fair and square. Nous savons qu'il l'a gagné juste et carré. Trump has lost all of his lawsuits. This is a really safe way to go ahead and signal that I'm going to honor him, and I'll pick up his voters.” And to them, it was a game. C'est un moyen vraiment sûr d'aller de l'avant et de signaler que je vais l'honorer et que je récupérerai ses électeurs. » Et pour eux, c'était un jeu. Это действительно безопасный способ заявить о том, что я буду чествовать его и заберу его избирателей ». И для них это была игра. And what they discovered pretty quickly was, it wasn't a game to the people to whom they had seemed to promise their loyalty. Et ce qu'ils ont découvert assez rapidement, c'est que ce n'était pas un jeu pour les gens à qui ils avaient semblé promettre leur fidélité. Josh Hawley is done because that photograph of him making the power sign to the rioters, yeah. Josh Hawley a fini parce que cette photo de lui faisant le signe du pouvoir aux émeutiers, oui. His career is done. And Ted Cruz is also in a terrible spot because, if you recall the timing, he had given a really incendiary speech while they were already marching toward the Capitol. So last night, those two senators doubled down because they really don't have anywhere else they can go. Alors hier soir, ces deux sénateurs ont doublé parce qu'ils n'ont vraiment nulle part où aller. Итак, вчера вечером эти два сенатора удвоились, потому что им действительно некуда больше пойти. But it was interesting to see the people who hadn't been that exposed took the off-ramp. Mais c'était intéressant de voir les gens qui n'avaient pas été aussi exposés prendre la bretelle de sortie. Yesterday morning, 14 senators said that they were going to object to the counting of electoral votes from Arizona, which is one of the states that Trump said he was contesting. Hier matin, 14 sénateurs ont déclaré qu'ils allaient s'opposer au dépouillement des votes électoraux de l'Arizona, qui est l'un des États que Trump a déclaré contester. But by the time the vote actually happened last night, only six of them went ahead and objected to it. Mais au moment où le vote a eu lieu la nuit dernière, seuls six d'entre eux sont allés de l'avant et s'y sont opposés. But you can see them going, I didn't mean that. Mais vous pouvez les voir partir, je ne voulais pas dire ça. I didn't want to be part of that.