×

We gebruiken cookies om LingQ beter te maken. Als u de website bezoekt, gaat u akkoord met onze cookiebeleid.

image

English LingQ Podcast 1.0, Forty-nine: Why should web apps be free?

Forty-nine: Why should web apps be free?

Steve: Hello there.

This is Steve again with …

Jill: Jill.

Mark: And Mark.

Steve: Today we're going to get a little controversial and it may even seem self-serving but one of the things that we come across very often is this idea that all the world that let's say Mike does as a programmer, all the ideas that we have or that reflect what we've learned and all the hours and hours that we put into finding a better way to learn languages that all of this should be free, that anything on the Internet should be free. I saw on one post on language learning someone said you know ideas should be free and I thought to myself well, there isn't a product that doesn't begin with an idea so you won't pay for the engineer, you won't reward the inventor but the person who turns the screws or you know paints it or whatever, that the manual labor you'll pay for but the idea you won't pay for. And, there's a lot of this thing.

I don't know where it comes from but personally and it's not because we're looking to get rich quick or whatever. We're totally motivated by what we're doing. We enjoy what we're doing. We believe in what we're doing and we have employees whom we pay who believe in what they're doing but they're doing work and we have to pay them and we think we should pay them. And so, therefore we are forced to charge somewhere along the line.

That seems to me normal. But, on the Internet there's a whole different mindset that everything should be free. Mark, presumably you don't disagree with me.

Mark: I would never disagree with you and on this issue I absolutely agree. I mean I find it extremely irritating that basically you're encouraged, it's better to beg for money than to charge money for a service. Like, you're better off to have a tip jar and give something away for free so basically equivalent to standing on the corner with a cup full of pencils is better than providing a good service and expecting a fair price for it.

You know I, if we're building something here which is of value to people why shouldn't those people pay for it? If those, if the complainer comes to my house and cuts my grass he's going to expect to get paid. He's not going to do it for free so why should what we do be considered or forced to be free? I don't understand really the mindset.

Steve: And, you know it's even more than that. First of all the idea that you don't pay for intellectual work, you know for ideas, I just don't know where that would come from. The idea as well that people can decided whether or not they wish to pay. In other words if we take that tip jar analogy to the shoe store then I just go to the shoe store and I can choose whether to pay for the shoes or not to pay for the shoes and choose to leave however much money I want to so yeah, I really like these shoes. Here's $200. I really like these shoes. Thanks very much. Good bye. Equally good, you know?

Jill: It's not realistic.

Steve: It's not realistic because what you'd have to do, I mean you'd hope to be getting $1,000 from someone to compensate for the other people who don't pay anything so it's really not fair.

Mark: Not at all.

Steve: Not fair. Everyone who likes that pair of shoes should have to pay the same amount of money for that pair of shoes, at least it seems to me. But Jill, maybe you have a different, what's the woman's perspective on this?

Jill: No, I totally agree with you guys of course. Like you both said we provide a service. We have, we put in our time. We have to pay other people to put in their time and they're not just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts because they want to help the millions of people out there who want to learn English. They do want to and we do as well but you know, we have families, we have to make a living and it's not something that we can just do for free. So, yeah, I completely agree.

Steve: Now, this can sound sort of self-serving and I'm sure there's people out there and I'm sure we're going to get into trouble for even having this discussion, but it really does, it really does great. I think it's, anyone who is saying this, in most cases, they either have a job themselves therefore they are getting paid for what they do or they're parents have a job. You know, somebody has a job.

Mark: Or they're on welfare.

Steve: Or they're on welfare.

Mark: But somebody's putting bread on their table.

Steve: So it's, you know fine that someone has a job and then they spend their evenings helping people do stuff. Great.

Volunteer. There's nothing wrong with that, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with volunteering. If somebody puts up a sign that says this is for free, just enjoy it. Great.

Jill: Like Wikipedia.

Steve: Wikipedia, great but don't have a tip jar there because in other words you would like to get money but you don't really want to charge people. If you want to say I wanted this, I am Bill Gates or I am not Bill Gates. I make, you know $5,000 a year but I'm going to spend all my savings to put up a nice site so that people can have a good time, good for you. Love it but don't have a tip jar if you're not looking for compensation.

I think in particular, like it was on a website where people were talking about audio books. Where can you get free audio books? I don't want to have to pay for an audio book? I even came across a site where they were offering Portuguese audio books, Portuguese language audio books which I'm interested in and it was called the Democratization of Sound or something. In other word s to make it free is to make it democratic or free or whatever. Why?

I know a person who lives in Italy, who runs a site called Il Narratore, he's totally devoted to putting Italian literature on the web. He lives in a very modest house with his wife and daughter. Why should he work for free? He does an excellent job. He's an absolute, you know craftsman and I love listening to his audio books and I would rather pay him $12 or $15 or $20 Euros for one of his audio books done professionally and I love it, rather than have some volunteer quite frankly come in and read. Or, they have projects now where 20 different people, each person reads a chapter. There's nothing wrong with doing that. That's good, for those who want that, that's fine but I don't feel that there should be any implied criticism of someone like Il Narratore who does it for a living and that's the hypocrisy that I find surrounding this issue.

Mark: Well, I think part of it has to do with this mindset that's kind of been promoted at people by you know, the media and the universities and it seems prevalent in at least Western society that, at least here in Canada that somehow business is bad, for-profit is bad. The only things that are good are environmental organizations and not-for-profits.

But people are, not-for-profits don't work for free so actually that's a complete hypocrisy. Volunteers are volunteers, not-for-profit employees are no different than anybody else. In fact, many not-for-profit employees make a lot of money so in my opinion not-for-profits in many cases are just a scam.

Steve: Well, I think that's a big strong but I don't disagree with you. I have seen so many examples of not-for-profits, because not-for-profits are able to get funding where a for-profit is not so that if a major say, fund, charity fund that might be funded by for-profit corporations who for whatever reason set up this fund and then they will say okay, here's money for example in literacy in language learning. They would never give it to the Linguist but if we set up the Jill, Mark and Steve not-for-profit literacy organization and then decided we were all going to make $80,000 it wouldn't matter. As long as we're a not-for-profit organization we can go in there and as long as we were able to demonstrate that we had something good.

In other words if the Linguist were not-for-profit but we all paid ourselves nice salaries we could then probably attract this funding. And, I have seen so many examples where the not-for-profits are totally motivated by how they can access funding so they will skew or spend a lot of their activity in how they can access this or that funding whether or not the activity that they get funding for actually benefits someone is secondary. How do they attract funding to feed their organization is the primary concern which is understandable. That's their revenue model. That's the revenue model which is okay too.

I just want to say that there's many different models including the volunteer model but there is nothing wrong with the model that I have a service. If you think it is valuable here's what I charge. If you don't like it, you don't pay. If you do like it you, pay.

So, I think we've kind of beaten this one up a bit and we'll probably get lots of criticism but I just, we just wanted to get it off our chest.

Learn languages from TV shows, movies, news, articles and more! Try LingQ for FREE

Forty-nine: Why should web apps be free? Neunundvierzig: Warum sollten Webanwendungen kostenlos sein? Cuarenta y nueve: ¿Por qué deben ser gratuitas las aplicaciones web? Quarante-neuf : Pourquoi les applications web devraient-elles être gratuites ? Quarantanove: Perché le applicazioni web dovrebbero essere gratuite? フォーティーナインなぜウェブアプリは無料でなければならないのか? 49: 웹 앱은 왜 무료여야 할까요? Keturiasdešimt devyni: Kodėl žiniatinklio programos turėtų būti nemokamos? Czterdzieści dziewięć: Dlaczego aplikacje internetowe powinny być darmowe? Quarenta e nove: Porque é que as aplicações Web devem ser gratuitas? Сорок девять: Почему веб-приложения должны быть бесплатными? Fyrtionio: Varför ska webbappar vara gratis? Kırk dokuz: Web uygulamaları neden ücretsiz olmalı? Сорок дев'ять: Чому веб-додатки повинні бути безкоштовними? 四十九:为什么网络应用程序应该免费? 四十九:為什麼網路應用程式應該免費?

Steve: Hello there.

This is Steve again with …

Jill: Jill.

Mark: And Mark.

Steve: Today we’re going to get a little controversial and it may even seem self-serving but one of the things that we come across very often is this idea that all the world that let’s say Mike does as a programmer, all the ideas that we have or that reflect what we’ve learned and all the hours and hours that we put into finding a better way to learn languages that all of this should be free, that anything on the Internet should be free. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||برنامه‌نویس|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||程式設計師|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Steve: Heute werden wir ein wenig kontrovers und es mag sogar eigennützig erscheinen, aber eines der Dinge, auf die wir sehr oft stoßen, ist diese Idee, die die ganze Welt, sagen wir Mike, als Programmierer macht, alle Ideen dass wir haben oder das widerspiegeln, was wir gelernt haben und all die Stunden und Stunden, die wir investieren, um einen besseren Weg zu finden, um Sprachen zu lernen, dass all dies kostenlos sein sollte, dass alles im Internet kostenlos sein sollte. Steve: Hoy vamos a ser un poco controvertidos e incluso puede parecer egoísta, pero una de las cosas con las que nos encontramos muy a menudo es esta idea de que todo el mundo, digamos que Mike lo hace como programador, todas las ideas. que tenemos o que reflejan lo que hemos aprendido y todas las horas y horas que dedicamos a encontrar una mejor manera de aprender idiomas que todo esto debería ser gratis, que cualquier cosa en Internet debería ser gratis. Steve : Aujourd'hui, nous allons être un peu controversés et cela peut même sembler égoïste, mais l'une des choses que nous rencontrons très souvent est cette idée que tout le monde, disons que Mike fait en tant que programmeur, toutes les idées que nous avons ou qui reflètent ce que nous avons appris et toutes les heures et les heures que nous avons consacrées à trouver une meilleure façon d'apprendre les langues que tout cela devrait être gratuit, que tout ce qui se trouve sur Internet devrait être gratuit. Стів: Сьогодні ми будемо трохи суперечливі, і це може навіть здатися корисливим, але одна з речей, з якою ми дуже часто стикаємося, це ідея, що весь світ, який, скажімо, Майк працює як програміст, усі ідеї які ми маємо або які відображають те, що ми навчилися, і всі години й години, які ми витратили на пошук кращого способу вивчення мов, що все це має бути безкоштовним, що все в Інтернеті має бути безкоштовним. I saw on one post on language learning someone said you know ideas should be free and I thought to myself well, there isn’t a product that doesn’t begin with an idea so you won’t pay for the engineer, you won’t reward the inventor but the person who turns the screws or you know paints it or whatever, that the manual labor you’ll pay for but the idea you won’t pay for. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||ốc vít||||sơn||||||lao động||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||vis||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||aperta os parafusos||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||ネジを回す人||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||recompensa|||||||||los tornillos||||||||||||||||||||| Ich habe in einem Beitrag zum Sprachenlernen gesehen, dass jemand sagte, Sie wissen, dass Ideen kostenlos sein sollten, und ich dachte mir, es gibt kein Produkt, das nicht mit einer Idee beginnt, also zahlen Sie nicht für den Ingenieur, Sie haben gewonnen. ' t belohnen Sie den Erfinder, aber die Person, die die Schrauben dreht oder Sie wissen, malt es oder was auch immer, dass die Handarbeit, für die Sie bezahlen, aber die Idee, für die Sie nicht bezahlen. Vi en una publicación sobre el aprendizaje de idiomas que alguien dijo que sabes que las ideas deberían ser gratuitas y pensé para mis adentros, bueno, no hay un producto que no comience con una idea, así que no pagarás por el ingeniero, no lo harás. No premies al inventor sino al que aprieta los tornillos o sabes que lo pinta o lo que sea, que el trabajo manual lo pagarás pero la idea no la pagarás. J'ai vu dans un article sur l'apprentissage des langues quelqu'un a dit que vous savez que les idées devraient être gratuites et je me suis dit, il n'y a pas de produit qui ne commence pas par une idée, donc vous ne paierez pas pour l'ingénieur, vous le ferez Je ne récompense pas l'inventeur mais la personne qui tourne les vis ou vous savez qui le peint ou quoi que ce soit, que le travail manuel que vous paierez mais l'idée que vous ne paierez pas. Dil öğrenmeyle ilgili bir yazıda birinin fikirlerin ücretsiz olması gerektiğini söylediğini gördüm ve kendi kendime düşündüm, bir fikirle başlamayan bir ürün yoktur, bu yüzden mühendise para ödemezsiniz, mucidi ödüllendirmezsiniz, ancak vidaları çeviren veya bilirsiniz boyayan veya her neyse, el emeği için ödeme yaparsınız, ancak fikir için ödeme yapmazsınız. Я побачив, що в одному дописі про вивчення мови хтось сказав, що ідеї мають бути безкоштовними, і я подумав: немає жодного продукту, який не починається з ідеї, тому ви не будете платити за інженера, ви будете Винагороджуйте винахідника, а людину, яка крутить гвинти або, як ви знаєте, малює це чи щось інше, що ручна праця ви заплатите, але за ідею ви не заплатите. And, there’s a lot of this thing. Ve bu şeyden çok var.

I don’t know where it comes from but personally and it’s not because we’re looking to get rich quick or whatever. Ich weiß nicht, woher es kommt, aber persönlich und nicht, weil wir schnell reich werden wollen oder was auch immer. Je ne sais pas d'où ça vient mais personnellement et ce n'est pas parce qu'on cherche à s'enrichir rapidement ou quoi que ce soit. Nereden geldiğini bilmiyorum ama şahsen ve bunun sebebi çabucak zengin olmak istediğimizden değil. We’re totally motivated by what we’re doing. Wir sind total motiviert von dem, was wir tun. Yaptığımız şeyden tamamen motive oluyoruz. We enjoy what we’re doing. We believe in what we’re doing and we have employees whom we pay who believe in what they’re doing but they’re doing work and we have to pay them and we think we should pay them. ||||||||||a quem||||||||||||||||||||||||| Wir glauben an das, was wir tun, und wir haben Mitarbeiter, die wir bezahlen, die an das glauben, was sie tun, aber sie machen Arbeit, und wir müssen sie bezahlen, und wir denken, wir sollten sie bezahlen. Nous croyons en ce que nous faisons et nous avons des employés que nous payons qui croient en ce qu'ils font mais ils font du travail et nous devons les payer et nous pensons que nous devrions les payer. Ne yaptığımıza inanıyoruz ve yaptıklarına inanan ama işlerini yaptıklarına inanan ödeme yaptığımız çalışanlarımız var ve onlara ödeme yapmalıyız ve onlara ödememiz gerektiğini düşünüyoruz. And so, therefore we are forced to charge somewhere along the line. |||||||||||quá trình Und so sind wir gezwungen, irgendwo entlang der Linie aufzuladen. Et donc, nous sommes donc obligés de facturer quelque part le long de la ligne. Ve bu nedenle, hat boyunca bir yerde şarj etmek zorunda kalıyoruz. Тому ми змушені платити десь уздовж лінії.

That seems to me normal. Bu bana normal görünüyor. But, on the Internet there’s a whole different mindset that everything should be free. ||||||||mentalidad||||| Aber im Internet gibt es eine ganz andere Einstellung, dass alles kostenlos sein sollte. Ancak internette her şeyin ücretsiz olması gerektiğine dair tamamen farklı bir zihniyet var. Mark, presumably you don’t disagree with me. |احتمالاً||||| |có lẽ||||| Mark, presumiblemente no estás en desacuerdo conmigo. Mark, muhtemelen benimle aynı fikirde değilsin.

Mark: I would never disagree with you and on this issue I absolutely agree. Mark: Size asla katılmam ve bu konuda kesinlikle katılıyorum. I mean I find it extremely irritating that basically you’re encouraged, it’s better to beg for money than to charge money for a service. ||||||khó chịu||||||||xin ăn|||||thu phí|||| ||||||irritating||||encouraged||||||||||||| ||||||||||animado||||mendigar||||||||| Ich finde es äußerst irritierend, dass Sie im Grunde genommen ermutigt werden. Es ist besser, um Geld zu betteln, als Geld für eine Dienstleistung zu verlangen. Es decir, me parece extremadamente irritante que básicamente te animes, es mejor mendigar dinero que cobrar dinero por un servicio. Je veux dire que je trouve extrêmement irritant qu'au fond on vous encourage, il vaut mieux mendier de l'argent que de faire payer un service. Demek istediğim, temelde teşvik edilmenizi son derece rahatsız edici buluyorum, bir hizmet için para almaktansa para için yalvarmak daha iyidir. Like, you’re better off to have a tip jar and give something away for free so basically equivalent to standing on the corner with a cup full of pencils is better than providing a good service and expecting a fair price for it. ||||||||ظرف انعام|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||与える||||||||||||||||鉛筆のカップ|||||||||||||| ||||||||hộp tiền|và||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Por ejemplo, es mejor tener un tarro de propinas y regalar algo gratis, así que básicamente equivalente a pararse en la esquina con un vaso lleno de lápices es mejor que brindar un buen servicio y esperar un precio justo por él. Par exemple, vous feriez mieux d'avoir un pot à pourboires et de donner quelque chose gratuitement, donc fondamentalement équivalent à se tenir au coin avec une tasse pleine de crayons est mieux que de fournir un bon service et d'attendre un prix équitable pour cela. Mesela, bir bahşiş kavanozuna sahip olmak ve ücretsiz bir şeyler vermek daha iyidir, bu yüzden temelde bir bardak dolusu kalemle köşede durmak, iyi bir hizmet sunmaktan ve bunun için uygun bir fiyat beklemekten daha iyidir.

You know I, if we’re building something here which is of value to people why shouldn’t those people pay for it? Weißt du, wenn wir hier etwas bauen, das für die Menschen von Wert ist, warum sollten diese Leute dann nicht dafür bezahlen? Vous savez, si nous construisons ici quelque chose qui a de la valeur pour les gens, pourquoi ces gens ne devraient-ils pas payer pour cela ? Biliyor musun, burada insanlar için değerli olan bir şey inşa ediyorsak, o insanlar neden para ödemesin? If those, if the complainer comes to my house and cuts my grass he’s going to expect to get paid. ||||شکایت‌کننده||||||||||||||| ||||râleur||||||||||||||| ||||苦情を言う人||||||||||||||| ||||quejoso||||||||||||||| ||||抱怨者||||||||||||||| Si ceux-ci, si le plaignant vient chez moi et coupe mon gazon, il va s'attendre à être payé. Eğer öyleyse, şikayetçi evime gelir ve çimlerimi keserse, maaş almasını bekleyecektir. He’s not going to do it for free so why should what we do be considered or forced to be free? Er wird es nicht kostenlos tun. Warum sollte das, was wir tun, in Betracht gezogen oder gezwungen werden, frei zu sein? Bunu bedavaya yapmayacak, öyleyse neden yaptığımız şey özgür sayılmalı veya zorlanmalı? I don’t understand really the mindset. |||||mentality Zihniyetini gerçekten anlamıyorum.

Steve: And, you know it’s even more than that. Steve: Und du weißt, es ist noch mehr. Steve: Ve bundan daha fazlası olduğunu biliyorsun. First of all the idea that you don’t pay for intellectual work, you know for ideas, I just don’t know where that would come from. ||||||||||trí tuệ|||||||||||||| Zuallererst die Idee, dass man nicht für intellektuelle Arbeit bezahlt, man weiß für Ideen, ich weiß nur nicht, woher das kommen würde. Tout d'abord l'idée qu'on ne paie pas pour le travail intellectuel, vous savez pour les idées, je ne sais pas d'où ça viendrait. Her şeyden önce, entelektüel çalışmalar için para ödemeyeceğiniz fikri, fikirleri biliyorsunuz, sadece bunun nereden geldiğini bilmiyorum. The idea as well that people can decided whether or not they wish to pay. Die Idee auch, dass die Leute entscheiden können, ob sie bezahlen wollen oder nicht. L'idée aussi que les gens peuvent décider s'ils veulent ou non payer. İnsanların ödeme yapmak isteyip istemediklerine karar verebilecekleri fikri de. In other words if we take that tip jar analogy to the shoe store then I just go to the shoe store and I can choose whether to pay for the shoes or not to pay for the shoes and choose to leave however much money I want to so yeah, I really like these shoes. |||||||||phép so sánh|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||tip jar||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||tarro||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Mit anderen Worten, wenn wir diese Trinkgeld-Analogie zum Schuhgeschäft nehmen, gehe ich einfach zum Schuhgeschäft und kann wählen, ob ich für die Schuhe bezahlen möchte oder nicht und wie viel Geld ich möchte Ja, ich mag diese Schuhe wirklich. En d'autres termes, si nous prenons cette analogie avec le magasin de chaussures, je vais simplement au magasin de chaussures et je peux choisir de payer les chaussures ou de ne pas payer les chaussures et de choisir de laisser autant d'argent que je veux donc oui, j'aime beaucoup ces chaussures. Başka bir deyişle, bu bahşiş kavanozu benzetmesini ayakkabı mağazasına götürürsek, o zaman sadece ayakkabı mağazasına giderim ve ayakkabıların parasını ödeyip ödememeyi seçebilir ve istediğim kadar para bırakmayı seçebilirim. evet, bu ayakkabıları gerçekten seviyorum. Here’s $200. Hier sind 200 Dollar. I really like these shoes. Ich mag diese Schuhe wirklich. Thanks very much. Vielen Dank. Good bye. Auf Wiedersehen. Equally good, you know? Genauso gut, weißt du? Igual de bueno, ¿sabes? Eşit derecede iyi, biliyor musun?

Jill: It’s not realistic. Jill: Es ist nicht realistisch. Jill: Bu gerçekçi değil.

Steve: It’s not realistic because what you’d have to do, I mean you’d hope to be getting $1,000 from someone to compensate for the other people who don’t pay anything so it’s really not fair. Steve: Es ist nicht realistisch, denn was Sie tun müssten, ich meine, Sie würden hoffen, 1.000 Dollar von jemandem zu bekommen, um die anderen Leute zu entschädigen, die nichts bezahlen, also ist es wirklich nicht fair. Steve : Ce n'est pas réaliste parce que ce que vous auriez à faire, je veux dire que vous espéreriez recevoir 1 000 $ de quelqu'un pour compenser les autres personnes qui ne paient rien, donc ce n'est vraiment pas juste. Steve: Bu gerçekçi değil çünkü yapmanız gereken şey, yani hiçbir şey ödemeyen diğer insanları telafi etmek için birinden 1.000 dolar almayı umarsınız, bu yüzden gerçekten adil değil.

Mark: Not at all. Mark: Überhaupt nicht. Mark: Hiç de değil.

Steve: Not fair. Steve: Adil değil. Everyone who likes that pair of shoes should have to pay the same amount of money for that pair of shoes, at least it seems to me. Jeder, der dieses Paar Schuhe mag, sollte für dieses Paar Schuhe den gleichen Geldbetrag bezahlen müssen, zumindest scheint es mir. O ayakkabıyı seven herkesin o ayakkabı için aynı miktarda para ödemesi gerekiyor, en azından bana öyle geliyor. But Jill, maybe you have a different, what’s the woman’s perspective on this? ||||||||||perspective|| Aber Jill, vielleicht haben Sie eine andere, wie sieht die Frau das aus? Ama Jill, belki sende farklı, kadının bu konuya bakış açısı nedir?

Jill: No, I totally agree with you guys of course. Jill: Nein, ich stimme euch natürlich voll und ganz zu. Like you both said we provide a service. Wie Sie beide sagten, bieten wir einen Service. Zoals jullie allebei al zeiden, we bieden een service. İkinizin de söylediği gibi bir hizmet veriyoruz We have, we put in our time. Biz var, zamanımızı koyduk. We have to pay other people to put in their time and they’re not just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts because they want to help the millions of people out there who want to learn English. ||||||||||||||||||||tốt bụng||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||bondad||||||||||||||||||| Wir müssen andere Leute dafür bezahlen, dass sie ihre Zeit investieren, und sie tun es nicht nur aus der Güte ihres Herzens heraus, weil sie den Millionen von Menschen da draußen helfen wollen, die Englisch lernen wollen. Nous devons payer d'autres personnes pour qu'elles consacrent leur temps et elles ne le font pas simplement par bonté de cœur parce qu'elles veulent aider les millions de personnes qui veulent apprendre l'anglais. Başkalarına zaman ayırmaları için para vermeliyiz ve bunu sadece kalplerinin iyiliği için yapmıyorlar çünkü orada İngilizce öğrenmek isteyen milyonlarca insana yardım etmek istiyorlar. They do want to and we do as well but you know, we have families, we have to make a living and it’s not something that we can just do for free. Sie wollen und wir auch, aber Sie wissen, wir haben Familien, wir müssen ihren Lebensunterhalt verdienen und das können wir nicht einfach kostenlos tun. Onlar istiyorlar ve biz de yapıyoruz ama biliyorsunuz, ailelerimiz var, geçinmek zorundayız ve bu sadece bedavaya yapabileceğimiz bir şey değil. So, yeah, I completely agree.

Steve: Now, this can sound sort of self-serving and I’m sure there’s people out there and I’m sure we’re going to get into trouble for even having this discussion, but it really does, it really does great. ||||||||tự lợi||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Steve: Nun, das kann irgendwie eigennützig klingen und ich bin mir sicher, dass es Leute gibt und ich bin sicher, dass wir Ärger bekommen werden, wenn wir überhaupt diese Diskussion führen, aber es tut es wirklich, es tut wirklich großartig. Steve: Ahora, esto puede sonar algo egoísta y estoy seguro de que hay gente por ahí y estoy seguro de que nos vamos a meter en problemas por tener esta discusión, pero realmente lo hace, realmente lo hace genial. Steve : Maintenant, cela peut sembler égoïste et je suis sûr qu'il y a des gens là-bas et je suis sûr que nous allons avoir des ennuis pour avoir même eu cette discussion, mais c'est vraiment le cas, c'est vraiment génial. Steve: Şimdi, bu kendi kendine hizmet gibi gelebilir ve eminim dışarıda insanlar var ve eminim bu tartışmayı yaptığımız için bile başımız belaya girecek, ama gerçekten işe yarıyor, gerçekten harika. I think it’s, anyone who is saying this, in most cases, they either have a job themselves therefore they are getting paid for what they do or they’re parents have a job. Ich denke, jeder, der dies sagt, hat in den meisten Fällen entweder selbst einen Job, deshalb werden sie für das bezahlt, was sie tun, oder ihre Eltern haben einen Job. Je pense que c'est, quiconque dit cela, dans la plupart des cas, soit ils ont eux-mêmes un emploi, donc ils sont payés pour ce qu'ils font, soit leurs parents ont un emploi. Sanırım bunu söyleyen biri, çoğu durumda ya kendilerinin bir işi var, bu yüzden yaptıkları için para alıyorlar ya da ebeveynlerinin bir işi var. You know, somebody has a job. Weißt du, jemand hat einen Job. Biliyorsun, birinin işi var.

Mark: Or they’re on welfare. ||||روی کمک‌های دولتی ||||government assistance ||||assistência social ||||phúc lợi xã hội Mark: O reciben asistencia social. Mark: Ya da refah içindeler.

Steve: Or they’re on welfare. ||||asistencia social Steve: Of ze zitten in de bijstand.

Mark: But somebody’s putting bread on their table. Mark : Mais quelqu'un met du pain sur sa table. Mark: Ale ktoś kładzie chleb na ich stole. Mark: Ama biri masasına ekmek koyuyor.

Steve: So it’s, you know fine that someone has a job and then they spend their evenings helping people do stuff. Steve: Also weißt du gut, dass jemand einen Job hat und dann seine Abende damit verbringt, Leuten zu helfen, Dinge zu tun. Steve: Entonces, sabes bien que alguien tiene un trabajo y luego pasa las tardes ayudando a la gente a hacer cosas. Steve : Alors c'est, vous savez très bien que quelqu'un a un travail et qu'ensuite il passe ses soirées à aider les gens à faire des trucs. Steve: Yani, iyi biliyorsun ki birisinin işi var ve akşamlarını insanlara yardım ederek geçiriyorlar. Great.

Volunteer. There’s nothing wrong with that, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Bunda yanlış bir şey yok, bunda kesinlikle yanlış bir şey yok.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with volunteering. |||||||داوطلب شدن If somebody puts up a sign that says this is for free, just enjoy it. Si alguien pone un letrero que dice que esto es gratis, disfrútalo. Birisi bunun ücretsiz olduğunu söyleyen bir tabela koyarsa, tadını çıkarın. Great.

Jill: Like Wikipedia. ||ویکی‌پدیا

Steve: Wikipedia, great but don’t have a tip jar there because in other words you would like to get money but you don’t really want to charge people. Steve: Wikipedia, großartig, aber ich habe dort kein Trinkgeldglas, weil Sie mit anderen Worten gerne Geld bekommen würden, aber nicht wirklich Leute belasten wollen. Steve : Wikipédia, super, mais n'y mettez pas de pourboire parce qu'en d'autres termes, vous aimeriez gagner de l'argent, mais vous ne voulez pas vraiment faire payer les gens. Steve: Wikipedia, harika ama orada bir bahşiş kutusu yok çünkü başka bir deyişle para kazanmak istiyorsun ama gerçekten insanları suçlamak istemiyorsun. If you want to say I wanted this, I am Bill Gates or I am not Bill Gates. Wenn Sie sagen möchten, dass ich das wollte, bin ich Bill Gates oder nicht Bill Gates. Si vous voulez dire que je voulais ça, je suis Bill Gates ou je ne suis pas Bill Gates. Bunu istediğimi söylemek isterseniz, ben Bill Gates veya Bill Gates değilim. I make, you know $5,000 a year but I’m going to spend all my savings to put up a nice site so that people can have a good time, good for you. Ich verdiene 5.000 US-Dollar pro Jahr, aber ich werde all meine Ersparnisse dafür ausgeben, eine schöne Website einzurichten, damit die Leute eine gute Zeit haben können, gut für Sie. Je gagne, vous savez, 5 000 $ par an, mais je vais dépenser toutes mes économies pour mettre en place un site sympa pour que les gens passent un bon moment, tant mieux pour vous. Zarabiam 5000 dolarów rocznie, ale zamierzam wydać wszystkie moje oszczędności, aby stworzyć fajną stronę, aby ludzie mogli się dobrze bawić, dobrze dla ciebie. Yılda 5000 dolar kazanıyorum, biliyorsunuz ama tüm birikimimi güzel bir site kurmak için harcayacağım, böylece insanlar iyi vakit geçirebilsinler, sizin için iyi. Love it but don’t have a tip jar if you’re not looking for compensation. |||||un|||||||| Me encanta pero no tiene bote de propinas si no buscas compensación. J'adore mais n'ayez pas de pot à pourboire si vous ne cherchez pas de compensation. Sevin ama tazminat istemiyorsanız bir bahşiş kavanozunuz yok.

I think in particular, like it was on a website where people were talking about audio books. Ich denke insbesondere, wie es auf einer Website war, auf der über Hörbücher gesprochen wurde. Je pense en particulier, comme si c'était sur un site Web où les gens parlaient de livres audio. Özellikle insanların sesli kitaplardan bahsettiği bir web sitesinde olduğu gibi düşünüyorum. Where can you get free audio books? Wo kann man kostenlose Hörbücher bekommen? I don’t want to have to pay for an audio book? |||||for||||| Я не хочу платить за аудиокнигу? I even came across a site where they were offering Portuguese audio books, Portuguese language audio books which I’m interested in and it was called the Democratization of Sound or something. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||دموکراتیزه کردن صدا|||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||音の民主化|||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||democratización del sonido|||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||聲音民主化|||| Ich bin sogar auf eine Seite gestoßen, auf der portugiesische Hörbücher angeboten wurden, portugiesischsprachige Hörbücher, an denen ich interessiert bin, und die als Demokratisierung des Klangs oder so bezeichnet wurden. Incluso encontré un sitio donde ofrecían audiolibros en portugués, audiolibros en portugués que me interesan y se llamaba Democratización del sonido o algo así. Je suis même tombé sur un site où ils proposaient des livres audio en portugais, des livres audio en portugais qui m'intéressent et qui s'appelaient la démocratisation du son ou quelque chose du genre. Hatta Portekizce sesli kitaplar sunan bir siteye rastladım, ilgilendiğim Portekizce sesli kitaplar ve adı Sesin Demokratikleşmesi gibi bir şeydi. In other word s to make it free is to make it democratic or free or whatever. En d'autres termes, le rendre libre, c'est le rendre démocratique ou libre ou autre. Diğer bir deyişle, onu özgür kılmak, onu demokratik ya da özgür ya da her neyse yapmaktır. Why?

I know a person who lives in Italy, who runs a site called Il Narratore, he’s totally devoted to putting Italian literature on the web. |||||||||||||ایل ناراتوره|راوی|||||||||| |||||||||||||||||dedicated||||||| ||||||||||||||el narrador|||||||||| Je connais une personne qui vit en Italie, qui gère un site qui s'appelle Il Narratore, il se consacre totalement à mettre la littérature italienne sur le web. He lives in a very modest house with his wife and daughter. |||||محقر|||||| |||||modest|||||| Why should he work for free? Warum sollte er kostenlos arbeiten? Pourquoi devrait-il travailler gratuitement ? He does an excellent job. He’s an absolute, you know craftsman and I love listening to his audio books and I would rather pay him $12 or $15 or $20 Euros for one of his audio books done professionally and I love it, rather than have some volunteer quite frankly come in and read. |||||استاد کار|||||||||||||||||یورو یا یوروها||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||franchement|||| |||||職人|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||artesano||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||francamente|||| Er ist ein absoluter Handwerker, und ich liebe es, seine Hörbücher zu hören, und ich würde ihm lieber 12, 15 oder 20 Euro für eines seiner professionell erstellten Hörbücher zahlen, und ich liebe es, anstatt dass ein Freiwilliger ganz offen hereinkommt und lesen. Él es un artesano absoluto y me encanta escuchar sus audiolibros y preferiría pagarle $12 o $15 o $20 euros por uno de sus audiolibros hecho profesionalmente y me encanta, en lugar de tener algún voluntario francamente viniendo y leer. C'est un artisan absolu, vous savez, et j'adore écouter ses livres audio et je préférerais lui payer 12 $, 15 $ ou 20 $ pour l'un de ses livres audio fait par des professionnels et j'adore ça, plutôt que de faire venir franchement un bénévole et lis. O mutlak bir zanaatkar, bilirsiniz ve sesli kitaplarını dinlemeyi seviyorum ve profesyonel olarak yaptığı sesli kitaplarından biri için ona 12 $ veya 15 $ veya 20 Euro ödemeyi tercih ederim ve açıkçası bir gönüllünün gelmesi yerine onu seviyorum. okuyun. Or, they have projects now where 20 different people, each person reads a chapter. Oder sie haben jetzt Projekte, in denen 20 verschiedene Personen ein Kapitel lesen. Ou, ils ont des projets maintenant où 20 personnes différentes, chaque personne lit un chapitre. Ya da şu anda 20 farklı kişinin, her bir kişinin bir bölüm okuduğu projeleri var. There’s nothing wrong with doing that. Daran ist nichts auszusetzen. That’s good, for those who want that, that’s fine but I don’t feel that there should be any implied criticism of someone like Il Narratore who does it for a living and that’s the hypocrisy that I find surrounding this issue. ||||||||||||||||||ngụ ý||||||||||||||||đạo đức giả|||||| ||||||||||||||||||implied||||||||||||||||hypocrisy|||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||偽善|||||| ||||||||||||||||||implícita|||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||敘述者|||||||||||||||| Eso está bien, para aquellos que quieran eso, está bien, pero no siento que deba haber ninguna crítica implícita a alguien como Il Narratore que se gana la vida y esa es la hipocresía que encuentro en torno a este tema. C'est bien, pour ceux qui veulent ça, c'est bien mais je ne pense pas qu'il faille critiquer implicitement quelqu'un comme Il Narratore qui fait ça pour gagner sa vie et c'est l'hypocrisie que je trouve autour de cette question. Bu iyi bir şey, bunu isteyenler için, bu iyi bir şey ama benim için yaşayan ve bu konuyla ilgili bulduğum ikiyüzlülük olan Il Narratore gibi birinin herhangi bir zımni eleştirisinin olması gerektiğini hissetmiyorum.

Mark: Well, I think part of it has to do with this mindset that’s kind of been promoted at people by you know, the media and the universities and it seems prevalent in at least Western society that, at least here in Canada that somehow business is bad, for-profit is bad. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||widespread|||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||beneficio|| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||com fins lucrativos|| Mark: Bueno, creo que parte de esto tiene que ver con esta mentalidad que ha sido promovida en la gente por los medios y las universidades y parece prevalecer al menos en la sociedad occidental, al menos aquí en Canadá que de alguna manera los negocios es malo, con fines de lucro es malo. Mark : Eh bien, je pense que cela a à voir avec cet état d'esprit qui a été en quelque sorte promu chez les gens par, vous savez, les médias et les universités et il semble répandu au moins dans la société occidentale que, au moins ici au Canada, que d'une manière ou d'une autre, les entreprises est mauvais, à but lucratif est mauvais. Mark: Sanırım bunun bir kısmı, insanların sizin bildiğiniz, medya ve üniversiteler tarafından tanıtıldığı ve en azından Batı toplumunda, en azından burada bir şekilde iş yapan Kanada'da yaygın olan bu zihniyetle ilgili olduğunu düşünüyorum. Kötüdür, kar amacı gütmez. The only things that are good are environmental organizations and not-for-profits. Die einzigen Dinge, die gut sind, sind Umweltorganisationen und gemeinnützige Organisationen. Les seules choses qui sont bonnes sont les organisations environnementales et les organismes sans but lucratif. İyi olan tek şey çevre örgütleri ve kar amacı gütmeyen kuruluşlardır.

But people are, not-for-profits don’t work for free so actually that’s a complete hypocrisy. |||||||||||||||giả dối |||||||||||||||hypocrisy Fakat insanlar kar amacı gütmeyenler için özgür olmadığından, bu tam bir iki yüzlülüktür. Volunteers are volunteers, not-for-profit employees are no different than anybody else. Les bénévoles sont des bénévoles, les employés des organismes sans but lucratif ne sont pas différents des autres. Gönüllüler gönüllülerdir, kar amacı gütmeyen çalışanlar hiç kimseden farklı değildir. In fact, many not-for-profit employees make a lot of money so in my opinion not-for-profits in many cases are just a scam. |||||||||||||||||||||||||騙局 |||||||||||||||||||||||||escroquerie |||||||||||||||||||||||||scam |||||||||||||||||||||||||una estafa En fait, de nombreux employés à but non lucratif gagnent beaucoup d'argent, donc à mon avis, les organisations à but non lucratif ne sont dans de nombreux cas qu'une arnaque. Aslında, kar amacı gütmeyen pek çok çalışan çok para kazanıyor, bu yüzden bence kar amacı gütmeyen birçok durumda sadece bir aldatmaca.

Steve: Well, I think that’s a big strong but I don’t disagree with you. Steve: Bueno, creo que eso es muy fuerte pero no estoy en desacuerdo contigo. Стив: Ну, я думаю, что это очень сильно, но я с вами не согласен. Steve: Bence bu büyük bir güç ama ben sana katılmıyorum. I have seen so many examples of not-for-profits, because not-for-profits are able to get funding where a for-profit is not so that if a major say, fund, charity fund that might be funded by for-profit corporations who for whatever reason set up this fund and then they will say okay, here’s money for example in literacy in language learning. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||سوادآموزی||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||financé||||||||||||||||||||||||l'alphabétisation||| ||||||||||||||||||financiamiento|||||||||||||||||||financiado||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||as entidades sem fins lucrativos||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Ich habe so viele Beispiele für gemeinnützige Organisationen gesehen, weil gemeinnützige Organisationen in der Lage sind, Finanzmittel zu erhalten, wenn eine gemeinnützige Organisation nicht vorhanden ist Unternehmen, die aus irgendeinem Grund diesen Fonds eingerichtet haben und dann sagen, dass sie in Ordnung sind, hier ist Geld zum Beispiel für Alphabetisierung beim Sprachenlernen. J'ai vu tellement d'exemples d'organismes à but non lucratif, parce que les organismes à but non lucratif peuvent obtenir un financement là où un organisme à but lucratif ne l'est pas, de sorte que si un fonds majeur, un fonds caritatif qui pourrait être financé par un organisme à but lucratif sociétés qui, pour une raison ou pour une autre, ont créé ce fonds, puis elles diront d'accord, voici de l'argent, par exemple pour l'alphabétisation et l'apprentissage des langues. Kâr amacı gütmeyen kuruluşların çok sayıda örneğini görmüştüm, çünkü kar amacı gütmeyen kuruluşlar, kâr amacı gütmeyen kuruluşlar tarafından finanse edilebilecek bir büyük fon, fon ve yardım fonu olması için kar amacı gütmeyen bir fon elde edebiliyorlar. Her ne sebeple olursa olsun, bu fonu kuran ve sonra tamam diyecek kurumlar, örneğin dil öğreniminde okuryazarlık için para. They would never give it to the Linguist but if we set up the Jill, Mark and Steve not-for-profit literacy organization and then decided we were all going to make $80,000 it wouldn’t matter. |||||||||||||||||||||سوادآموزی||||||||||||| Ils ne le donneraient jamais au Linguiste, mais si nous mettions sur pied l'organisation d'alphabétisation à but non lucratif Jill, Mark et Steve et que nous décidions ensuite que nous allions tous gagner 80 000 $, cela n'aurait pas d'importance. Nigdy nie przekazaliby ich Linguist, ale gdybyśmy założyli organizację non-profit Jill, Marka i Steve'a zajmującą się alfabetyzacją, a następnie zdecydowali, że wszyscy zarobimy 80 000 dolarów, nie miałoby to znaczenia. Onlar asla Dilbilimciye vermezlerdi, ama eğer Jill'i, Mark'ı ve Steve'i kar amacı gütmeyen okuryazarlık organizasyonunu kurarsak ve sonra hepimiz 80.000 dolar kazanacağımıza karar verdiysek, önemli olmazdı. As long as we’re a not-for-profit organization we can go in there and as long as we were able to demonstrate that we had something good. Tant que nous sommes une organisation à but non lucratif, nous pouvons y aller et tant que nous avons pu démontrer que nous avions quelque chose de bien. Kar amacı gütmeyen bir kuruluş olduğumuz sürece, oraya gidebiliriz ve iyi bir şeyimiz olduğunu gösterebildiğimiz sürece gidebiliriz.

In other words if the Linguist were not-for-profit but we all paid ourselves nice salaries we could then probably attract this funding. Mit anderen Worten, wenn der Linguist nicht gewinnorientiert wäre, aber wir uns alle gute Gehälter gezahlt hätten, könnten wir wahrscheinlich diese Mittel anziehen. En otras palabras, si el lingüista no tuviera fines de lucro pero todos nos pagáramos buenos salarios, probablemente podríamos atraer esta financiación. En d'autres termes, si le linguiste était à but non lucratif mais que nous nous payions tous de bons salaires, nous pourrions alors probablement attirer ce financement. Başka bir deyişle Dilbilimci kar amacı gütmediyse de, hepimiz kendimize güzel maaşlar ödedik, o zaman muhtemelen bu fonu çekebilirdik. And, I have seen so many examples where the not-for-profits are totally motivated by how they can access funding so they will skew or spend a lot of their activity in how they can access this or that funding whether or not the activity that they get funding for actually benefits someone is secondary. ||||||||||||||||||||||||skew||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||tortam||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||thiên lệch||||||||||||||||quỹ tài trợ||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||تحریف کردن||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||扭曲||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||偏る||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||se desvían||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Und ich habe so viele Beispiele gesehen, bei denen die gemeinnützigen Organisationen völlig davon motiviert sind, wie sie auf Finanzmittel zugreifen können, so dass sie einen Großteil ihrer Aktivitäten darauf verzerren oder ausgeben, wie sie auf diese oder jene Finanzmittel zugreifen können, unabhängig davon, ob es sich um Aktivitäten handelt oder nicht Sie erhalten Mittel für Leistungen, die jemand zweitrangig ist. Y he visto tantos ejemplos en los que las organizaciones sin fines de lucro están totalmente motivadas por cómo pueden acceder a la financiación, por lo que sesgarán o gastarán gran parte de su actividad en cómo pueden acceder a esta o aquella financiación, ya sea que la actividad que obtienen fondos para los beneficios reales de alguien es secundario. Et, j'ai vu tant d'exemples où les organisations à but non lucratif sont totalement motivées par la manière dont elles peuvent accéder au financement, de sorte qu'elles biaiseront ou dépenseront une grande partie de leur activité dans la manière dont elles peuvent accéder à tel ou tel financement, que l'activité qui ils obtiennent un financement pour réellement profiter à quelqu'un est secondaire. Ayrıca, kar amacı gütmeyen kuruluşların fonlara nasıl erişebilecekleri konusunda çok motive oldukları çok sayıda örnek gördüm. Böylece, bu faaliyetlere nasıl erişebilecekleri ya da bu faaliyetten ne kadar para harcayacaklarını ya da bu faaliyetten ne kadar para harcayacaklarını harcayacaklar. Birisinin ikincil olarak fayda sağlaması için finansman alırlar. How do they attract funding to feed their organization is the primary concern which is understandable. |||||||||||||それは|| Comment attirent-ils des fonds pour alimenter leur organisation est la principale préoccupation qui est compréhensible. Örgütlerini beslemek için fonları nasıl çekiyorlar, anlaşılabilir olan temel sorun. That’s their revenue model. ||доход| Ese es su modelo de ingresos. C'est leur modèle de revenus. Bu onların gelir modeli. That’s the revenue model which is okay too. ||modelo de receita||||| Такая модель доходов тоже устраивает.

I just want to say that there’s many different models including the volunteer model but there is nothing wrong with the model that I have a service. Je veux juste dire qu'il existe de nombreux modèles différents, y compris le modèle du bénévolat, mais il n'y a rien de mal avec le modèle selon lequel j'ai un service. If you think it is valuable here’s what I charge. Si crees que es valioso, esto es lo que cobro. Si vous pensez que c'est précieux, voici ce que je facture. Bunun değerli olduğunu düşünüyorsanız, şarj ettiğim şey burada. If you don’t like it, you don’t pay. If you do like it you, pay.

So, I think we’ve kind of beaten this one up a bit and we’ll probably get lots of criticism but I just, we just wanted to get it off our chest. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||sacar||de||pecho |||||||||||||||||||||||juste|||||||de notre poitrine ||||||||||||||||||||я|||||||||| ||||||discutido bastante|||||||||||||||||||||||| So, I think we've kind of beaten this one up a bit and we'll probably get lots of criticism but I just, we just wanted to get it off our chest. Entonces, creo que hemos derrotado un poco a este y probablemente recibiremos muchas críticas, pero solo queríamos desahogarnos. Donc, je pense que nous avons en quelque sorte battu celui-ci un peu et nous aurons probablement beaucoup de critiques, mais je, nous voulions juste le retirer de notre poitrine. Myślę więc, że trochę się z tym pogodziliśmy i prawdopodobnie otrzymamy wiele krytyki, ale po prostu chcieliśmy to z siebie wyrzucić. Так что, я думаю, мы немного перемудрили, и, вероятно, получим много критики, но мы просто хотели высказаться по этому поводу. Yani, bence bunu biraz dayak yedik ve muhtemelen çok fazla eleştiri alacağız ama ben sadece onu göğsümüzden çıkarmak istedik.