×

Używamy ciasteczek, aby ulepszyć LingQ. Odwiedzając stronę wyrażasz zgodę na nasze polityka Cookie.

image

Moyers on Democracy podcast, PODCAST: Heather McGhee: How American Racism has a Cost for Everyone (1)

PODCAST: Heather McGhee: How American Racism has a Cost for Everyone (1)

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy.

Heather McGhee is descended from slaves in the American South. Her great- grandparents and grandparents came north to work in the steel mills. She grew up on the south side of Chicago, taught in Spain and studied writing in Hollywood, then decided to change the world, or at least try. At 22, working for the non-profit organization Demos in New York, she plunged into the fight for debt reform, then tackled Wall Street corruption and consumer protection, and wound up president of Demos, leading its campaign against political and economic inequality. Her forthcoming book – THE SUM OF US – dedicated to her mother, Dr. Gail Christopher — couldn't be more timely. Hopefully it will wind up on Joe Biden's bedside reading table as he prepares to cope with a raging pandemic, an economic crisis, our overwhelmed health system, and an imperiled work force. There's plenty of food for thought – and quite a heap of hope – in Heather McGhee's informed account of how we can prosper together if only we cross the racial divide. Here at Moyers on Democracy we hope THE SUM OF US winds up on your reading table, too. Here to talk with Heather McGhee is Bill Moyers.

BILL MOYERS: Welcome, Heather. Very good to see you again. If President-elect Joe Biden asked me for one book to read between now and the inauguration, I would recommend your book THE SUM OF US. And I would urge him to require every new member of the White House staff, member of the Cabinet, and incoming director of an agency or department to read it as well.

HEATHER MCGHEE: Wow.

BILL MOYERS: You set out to actually do an accounting of the hidden cost of racism.

What's the core message you would hope they would take from it as they put together an administration trying to do what Biden keeps saying is his aspiration, to unify the country?

HEATHER MCGHEE: The message of the book THE SUM OF US is quite simple. It's that racism has a cost for everyone. And its primary function in our society has been to grease the wheels for a machine of greed that has impoverished almost everyone. Now more than ever today, racial division as a tool wielded by those who are the most wealthy, the most powerful, and the most self-interested, is something that breaks down potential coalitions between people who have common struggle. It makes us demonize one another when, in fact, we should be linking arms to improve all of our lives. And it impoverishes everything that we share in common, from our air, to our infrastructure, to our systems of education and our democracy itself. Racism has a cost for everyone and ultimately, when we can create cross-racial solidarity, we can all benefit.

BILL MOYERS: Did you really learn anything new that intuitively you didn't bring to this task with you?

HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes, I was born on the South Side of Chicago and I grew up in the beginning of the Inequality Era, when the good manufacturing jobs were going away, when, you know, the divide between the wealthy and everybody else was widening. And I also grew up in a political era when there was so much scapegoating of Black and brown people, particularly Black people, single mothers, like my own single mother. And I knew that that dominant political narrative was wrong and that it was sort of being used to distract and divide us. That said, I also came of age in my career in the progressive economic orthodoxy that was, at the time, pretty colorblind. It was mostly focused on the rules of taxation, labor policy, spending and investment. All of these issues that have, of course, racially disparate impacts and racial disparities to them. But they weren't seen as racial issues. They were seen as economic issues. And so, the thing I learned as a young policy wonk was there's economic inequality and racism makes that inequality worse for people of color. And I had a few experiences as I was sort of growing up in my career that sort of tried to turn the light on for me. And point me in this direction of what I would eventually do, which is flip that formulation. Not that there's inequality, and racism makes it worse for people of color, but rather racism, structural racism, political and strategic racism makes inequality happen for everyone. It is the driver of inequality.

BILL MOYERS: You had the sense, that many white Americans believe there's an “us” and a “them.” And what's good for them is bad for us. They want our jobs. They want our schools. They want our neighborhoods. There became something fearful in the response that reflected an unwillingness to see beyond the gap to what you were talking about. The white working class. And the Black working class, they were all in the same boat. They just didn't row together.

HEATHER MCGHEE: That's exactly right. It is that zero-sum paradigm that I think is at the heart of our dysfunction as a society. The idea that, although we are, of course, one people and in many ways, our fortunes rise and fall together, and it's particularly predominant among white Americans, this view that there's a zero-sum racial competition.

BILL MOYERS: Zero-sum, meaning?

HEATHER MCGHEE: Meaning what I have comes at your expense. Meaning if you add up what I have and you've taken away, it's just a zero. There is no mutual benefit or interest. It is one for one, eye for eye. That paradigm, particularly at a time of rapid demographic change, when there is a narrative that white America is losing out, will not be the majority, and if they're not the numerical majority, they will not be the power majority. And they will be treated, potentially, as minorities have been treated under a white dominant society. It's very deep. So, I went to discover where it came from. And I had to sort of unlearn a lot of bad history that I had learned growing up as an American child. And really identify how that zero-sum racial paradigm was sort of the lie at the root of our founding. And it was used by the plantation class and the colonial class in order to justify chattel slavery and near genocide of Indigenous peoples and sell that brutal economy to the majority of white people who were landless white people. And it's become a sort of core weapon for people who want to concentrate wealth, who want to aggregate power. I mean, obviously, in the Trump era, it's more naked and vivid than it's ever been. The constant scapegoating and the punching down, while, of course, the only thing that the regime delivers is tax cuts for itself and unemployment for millions more.

BILL MOYERS: Give me a thumbnail sketch of what was in your mind as you saw the opposite of what our society could be.

HEATHER MCGHEE: I ended up including, in the end, a chapter about the moral costs of racism, the personal costs. I came at it from an economic policy standpoint. I do this work, this policy work, out of a faith in the unseen. Because it is unseen. A multiracial democracy with a robust safety net and social contract that doesn't have an asterisk by it. That doesn't limit it to the people of the ruling class and to whites only. You know, it's really important to rewrite what I understood as the core economic narrative on the left, which was that there was a New Deal era– started in the '30s and in the '40s and '50s. This era of shared prosperity where we built the great American middle class. It's very clear that each and every one of those investments, each and every one of those contracts for high union density, high wages, subsidization of education and housing, all of that had an asterisk and was done in a racially restrictive way by our government. And it was when in the 1960s we fought and struggled to remove that asterisk that that social contract frayed and we began to move into the Inequality Era. The central story at the heart of my book, Bill, is the story that was replicated in countless towns across the country, where public swimming pools that had been financed by tax dollars– we used to have over 2,000 in this country, these sort of grand resort pools that were the heart of communities. They were ways in which the government was sort of committing to a high, almost bourgeois quality of life for working and middle class people. It was bringing together, you know, white folks of different European ancestry and immigrants and having them sort of all meet in this social commons of recreation. They were often segregated and whites only. And when in the 1950s the country began to require, often through the courts, that these pools were integrated, so many towns across the country, and not just in the South, decided to drain their public swimming pools rather than integrate them.

BILL MOYERS: That happened, I regret to tell you, in my hometown. Why didn't the Civil Rights Act of '64, the Voting Rights Act of '65 and other changes in that early half of the '60s, bring about this more equal society with adequately funded schools and reliable infrastructure, with wages that keep families out of poverty and a public health system that can handle all comers, including pandemics?

HEATHER MCGHEE: I open the book by positing it in the form of, “Why can't we just have nice things,” right?

BILL MOYERS: Right.

HEATHER MCGHEE: You know, the answer is racism. And not just sort of individual, ugly, violent racism. Not biological racism. The belief system that every Black is sort of inherently inferior to white people. After the Civil Rights Movement, a few phenomena happened to drain the pool of our society altogether. One, the will among white Americans to have basically a robust commons, to have a public pool at all, began to just plummet. I looked back at some public opinion polling about the idea that we should have high wages that keep people out of poverty, a guaranteed income, and a job for anyone in America who wants one. Up until the mid-1960s, the majority of white people agreed with that idea. They wanted a robust, active government that guaranteed a high quality of life. And it was in the middle of the 1960s, in fact, when that demand began to be echoed prominently by the Black civil rights movement who marched on Washington for jobs and freedom, had a list of demands that included a jobs guarantee and a high minimum wage, that that support by white people almost vanished. And you began to see the white majority move towards a conservative economic vision that basically, you know, picked up their toys and went home. In the pool metaphor, communities ended up having private swimming clubs that you had to pay $50 for. They ended up having backyard pools. You had to be rich enough to have that. We lost out on the idea of a guarantee of a decent quality of life for everyone. And it really was about the shift among white Americans from the New Deal consensus because the people that they had been taught for generations were inferior and dangerous, were suddenly allowed to swim in the same pool. And that seemed like a betrayal. It made all things public seem dirty and a place they didn't want to be. Including the major vehicles of collective action in this country: labor unions and the government. And you began to see white people turn away from those institutions once they were more integrated.

Learn languages from TV shows, movies, news, articles and more! Try LingQ for FREE

PODCAST: Heather McGhee: How American Racism has a Cost for Everyone (1) بودكاست|||||||||| |Heather|McGhee|cómo|estadounidense|Racismo estadounidense|tiene||Costo|para|todos PODCAST: Heather McGhee: Wie der amerikanische Rassismus für alle einen Preis hat (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: How American Racism has a Cost for Everyone (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: Cómo el racismo estadounidense tiene un coste para todos (1) PODCAST : Heather McGhee : Le racisme américain a un coût pour tout le monde (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: come il razzismo americano ha un costo per tutti (1) ポッドキャストヘザー・マクギー:アメリカの人種差別はいかにして皆に犠牲を強いているか (1) 팟캐스트: 헤더 맥기: 미국의 인종차별이 모두에게 어떤 대가를 치르게 하는가 (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: Jak amerykański rasizm kosztuje wszystkich (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: Como o racismo americano tem um custo para todos (1) PODCAST: Хизер МакГи: как американский расизм обходится всем (1) PODCAST: Heather McGhee: Amerikan Irkçılığının Herkese Nasıl Bir Bedeli Var (1) ПОДКАСТ: Гізер МакГі: Як американський расизм обходиться кожному (1) PODCAST:希瑟-麦基:美国种族主义如何让每个人付出代价 (1) 播客:希瑟麥吉:美國種族主義如何讓每個人付出代價 (1)

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy. |Bienvenidos||Moyers|| Bienvenidos a Moyers en Democracia. ANNONCEUR : Bienvenue à Moyers on Democracy. SUNUCU: Moyers on Democracy'ye hoş geldiniz.

Heather McGhee is descended from slaves in the American South. |||来自|||||| Heather McGhee descend d'esclaves du sud des États-Unis. Heather McGhee, Güney Amerika'daki kölelerin soyundan geliyor. Her great- grandparents and grandparents came north to work in the steel mills. Ses arrière-grands-parents et grands-parents sont venus dans le Nord pour travailler dans les aciéries. Os seus bisavós e avós vieram para o norte para trabalhar nas siderurgias. Büyükanne ve büyükbabaları ve büyükanne ve büyükbabaları çelik fabrikalarında çalışmak için kuzeye geldiler. She grew up on the south side of Chicago, taught in Spain and studied writing in Hollywood, then decided to change the world, or at least try. Elle a grandi dans le sud de Chicago, a enseigné en Espagne et a étudié l'écriture à Hollywood, puis a décidé de changer le monde, ou du moins d'essayer. Cresceu na zona sul de Chicago, foi professora em Espanha e estudou escrita em Hollywood, tendo depois decidido mudar o mundo, ou pelo menos tentar. Chicago'nun güney tarafında büyüdü, İspanya'da öğretmenlik yaptı ve Hollywood'da yazarlık okudu, sonra dünyayı değiştirmeye ya da en azından denemeye karar verdi. At 22, working for the non-profit organization Demos in New York, she plunged into the fight for debt reform, then tackled Wall Street corruption and consumer protection, and wound up president of Demos, leading its campaign against political and economic inequality. ||||||||||||投入||||||||解决||||||||最终|成为|||||||||||不平等 ||||||||||||غاصت في|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| À 22 ans, travaillant pour l'organisation à but non lucratif Demos à New York, elle se lance dans la lutte pour la réforme de la dette, puis s'attaque à la corruption de Wall Street et à la protection des consommateurs, et finit présidente de Demos, menant sa campagne contre les inégalités politiques et économiques. Aos 22 anos, a trabalhar para a organização sem fins lucrativos Demos, em Nova Iorque, entrou na luta pela reforma da dívida, depois abordou a corrupção em Wall Street e a proteção dos consumidores e acabou por se tornar presidente da Demos, liderando a sua campanha contra a desigualdade política e económica. В 22 года, работая в некоммерческой организации Demos в Нью-Йорке, она окунулась в борьбу за реформу долга, затем занялась коррупцией на Уолл-стрит и защитой потребителей и стала президентом Demos, возглавив ее кампанию против политического и экономического неравенства. 22 yaşında, New York'ta kâr amacı gütmeyen bir kuruluş olan Demos için çalışırken borç reformu için mücadeleye girdi, ardından Wall Street yolsuzluğu ve tüketicinin korunmasıyla mücadele etti ve siyasi ve ekonomik eşitsizliğe karşı kampanyasına liderlik ederek Demos'un başkanı oldu. Her forthcoming book – THE SUM OF US – dedicated to her mother, Dr. Gail Christopher — couldn't be more timely. Her forthcoming book – THE SUM OF US – dedicated to her mother, Dr. Gail Christopher — couldn't be more timely. Son prochain livre – THE SUM OF US – dédié à sa mère, le Dr Gail Christopher – tombe à pic. O seu próximo livro - THE SUM OF US - dedicado à sua mãe, a Dra. Gail Christopher - não podia ser mais oportuno. Ее будущая книга «СУММА НАС», посвященная ее матери, доктору Гейл Кристофер, не может быть более своевременной. Annesi Dr. Gail Christopher'a adadığı yakında çıkacak kitabı – THE SUM OF US – bundan daha zamanında olamazdı. Hopefully it will wind up on Joe Biden's bedside reading table as he prepares to cope with a raging pandemic, an economic crisis, our overwhelmed health system, and an imperiled work force. ||||||||||||||||||肆虐的|||||||||||岌岌可危的|| Espérons qu'il se retrouvera sur la table de lecture de chevet de Joe Biden alors qu'il se prépare à faire face à une pandémie qui fait rage, à une crise économique, à notre système de santé débordé et à une main-d'œuvre en péril. Esperemos que acabe na mesa de cabeceira de Joe Biden, enquanto ele se prepara para enfrentar uma pandemia violenta, uma crise económica, o nosso sistema de saúde sobrecarregado e uma força de trabalho em perigo. Надеюсь, он окажется на прикроватном столике для чтения Джо Байдена, когда он готовится справиться с бушующей пандемией, экономическим кризисом, нашей перегруженной системой здравоохранения и находящейся под угрозой рабочей силы. Umarım bu, Joe Biden'ın şiddetli bir salgın, ekonomik kriz, bunalmış sağlık sistemimiz ve tehlikede bir iş gücü ile başa çıkmaya hazırlanırken başucundaki okuma masasında sona erecektir. There's plenty of food for thought – and quite a heap of hope – in Heather McGhee's informed account of how we can prosper together if only we cross the racial divide. ||||||||||||||麦基|||||||繁荣|||||||种族| Il y a beaucoup de matière à réflexion – et beaucoup d'espoir – dans le récit éclairé de Heather McGhee sur la façon dont nous pouvons prospérer ensemble si seulement nous franchissons la fracture raciale. Heather McGhee'nin ırk ayrımını aşmamız halinde birlikte nasıl gelişebileceğimize dair bilgili anlatımında düşünmek için bolca yiyecek ve oldukça fazla umut var. 希瑟·麦吉 (Heather McGhee) 的论述很有见地,告诉我们只要我们跨越种族隔阂,就能共同繁荣,这其中有很多值得思考的地方,也充满了希望。 Here at Moyers on Democracy we hope THE SUM OF US winds up on your reading table, too. Moyers on Democracy'de, US SUM OF US'in de okuma masanıza gelmesini umuyoruz. 我们希望《莫耶斯论民主》也能出现在您的读物中。 Here to talk with Heather McGhee is Bill Moyers. Burada Heather McGhee ile konuşmak için Bill Moyers var. 比尔·莫耶斯 (Bill Moyers) 将与 Heather McGhee 进行交谈。

BILL MOYERS: Welcome, Heather. Very good to see you again. Seni tekrar görmek çok güzel. If President-elect Joe Biden asked me for one book to read between now and the inauguration, I would recommend your book THE SUM OF US. ||||||||||||||||就职典礼||||||||| Si le président élu Joe Biden me demandait un livre à lire d'ici l'inauguration, je recommanderais votre livre LA SOMME DE NOUS. Başkan seçilen Joe Biden, şimdi ve açılış töreni arasında okumam için bir kitap isterse, kitabınızı tavsiye ederim THE SUM OF US. And I would urge him to require every new member of the White House staff, member of the Cabinet, and incoming director of an agency or department to read it as well. ||||||||||||||||||内阁||即将上任||||||||||| Ve Beyaz Saray personelinin her yeni üyesinin, Kabine üyesinin ve bir ajans veya departmanın gelen müdürünün de okumasını istemesini rica ediyorum. 我还敦促他要求每一位新任白宫工作人员、内阁成员以及新任机构或部门主管也阅读这本书。

HEATHER MCGHEE: Wow.

BILL MOYERS: You set out to actually do an accounting of the hidden cost of racism. |||||||||核算|||||| BILL MOYERS : Vous avez entrepris de faire un bilan du coût caché du racisme. BILL MOYERS: Aslında ırkçılığın gizli maliyetinin bir muhasebesini yapmak için yola çıktınız. 比尔·莫耶斯:你实际上打算对种族主义的隐性成本进行核算。

What's the core message you would hope they would take from it as they put together an administration trying to do what Biden keeps saying is his aspiration, to unify the country? |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||团结|| Quel est le message central que vous espérez qu'ils en retirent alors qu'ils mettent en place une administration essayant de faire ce que Biden continue de dire est son aspiration, à unifier le pays ? Biden'ın sürekli söylediği şeyi, ülkeyi birleştirmek için söylediği şeyi yapmaya çalışan bir yönetimi bir araya getirirken, bundan alacaklarını umduğunuz temel mesaj nedir? 当他们组建一个政府试图实现拜登一直说的愿望——团结国家时,你希望他们从中得到什么核心信息?

HEATHER MCGHEE: The message of the book THE SUM OF US is quite simple. HEATHER MCGHEE: THE SUM OF US kitabının mesajı oldukça basittir. It's that racism has a cost for everyone. ||种族主义||||| Irkçılığın herkes için bir bedeli var. And its primary function in our society has been to grease the wheels for a machine of greed that has impoverished almost everyone. |||||||||||||||||贪婪|||使贫困|| Et sa fonction première dans notre société a été de graisser les rouages d'une machine avide qui a appauvri presque tout le monde. Ve toplumumuzda birincil işlevi, neredeyse herkesi yoksullaştıran bir açgözlülük makinesinin tekerleklerini yağlamak olmuştur. Now more than ever today, racial division as a tool wielded by those who are the most wealthy, the most powerful, and the most self-interested, is something that breaks down potential coalitions between people who have common struggle. |||||种族|||||使用||||||||||||||||||||||联盟|||||| Aujourd'hui plus que jamais, la division raciale en tant qu'outil utilisé par ceux qui sont les plus riches, les plus puissants et les plus intéressés, est quelque chose qui brise les coalitions potentielles entre les personnes qui ont une lutte commune. Bugün her zamankinden daha fazla, en zengin, en güçlü ve en çıkarcı kişiler tarafından kullanılan bir araç olarak ırksal bölünme, ortak mücadelesi olan insanlar arasındaki olası koalisyonları bozan bir şeydir. It makes us demonize one another when, in fact, we should be linking arms to improve all of our lives. Cela nous fait nous diaboliser les uns les autres alors qu'en fait, nous devrions lier les bras pour améliorer toutes nos vies. Aslında, hayatımızın tamamını iyileştirmek için kollarımızı birleştirmemiz gerekirken, birbirimizi şeytanlaştırmamıza neden oluyor. And it impoverishes everything that we share in common, from our air, to our infrastructure, to our systems of education and our democracy itself. Ve havamızdan altyapımıza, eğitim sistemlerimize ve demokrasimizin kendisine kadar ortak paylaştığımız her şeyi yoksullaştırıyor. Racism has a cost for everyone and ultimately, when we can create cross-racial solidarity, we can all benefit. Irkçılığın herkes için bir bedeli vardır ve nihayetinde, ırklar arası dayanışmayı yaratabildiğimiz zaman bundan hepimiz faydalanabiliriz.

BILL MOYERS: Did you really learn anything new that intuitively you didn't bring to this task with you? BILL MOYERS : Avez-vous vraiment appris quelque chose de nouveau que intuitivement vous n'avez pas apporté à cette tâche ? БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: Вы действительно узнали что-то новое, чего интуитивно не использовали для решения этой задачи? BILL MOYERS: Sezgisel olarak bu göreve yanınızda getirmediğiniz yeni bir şey öğrendiniz mi?

HEATHER MCGHEE: Yes, I was born on the South Side of Chicago and I grew up in the beginning of the Inequality Era, when the good manufacturing jobs were going away, when, you know, the divide between the wealthy and everybody else was widening. HEATHER MCGHEE: Evet, Chicago'nun Güney Yakası'nda doğdum ve Eşitsizlik Çağı'nın başlangıcında, iyi imalat işlerinin ortadan kalktığı, bilirsiniz, zenginler ile diğer herkes arasındaki uçurumun arttığı bir dönemde büyüdüm. . And I also grew up in a political era when there was so much scapegoating of Black and brown people, particularly Black people, single mothers, like my own single mother. Et j'ai aussi grandi à une époque politique où il y avait tellement de bouc émissaire des Noirs et des Marrons, en particulier les Noirs, les mères célibataires, comme ma propre mère célibataire. Ayrıca siyah ve esmer insanların, özellikle siyahların, bekar annelerin, kendi bekar annem gibi çok fazla günah keçisi ilan edildiği bir siyasi çağda büyüdüm. And I knew that that dominant political narrative was wrong and that it was sort of being used to distract and divide us. Et je savais que ce récit politique dominant était faux et qu'il était en quelque sorte utilisé pour nous distraire et nous diviser. Ve bu baskın siyasi anlatının yanlış olduğunu ve bir nevi dikkatimizi dağıtmak ve bizi bölmek için kullanıldığını biliyordum. That said, I also came of age in my career in the progressive economic orthodoxy that was, at the time, pretty colorblind. Cela dit, je suis également devenu majeur dans ma carrière dans l'orthodoxie économique progressiste qui était, à l'époque, assez daltonienne. Тем не менее, я также достиг совершеннолетия в своей карьере в прогрессивной экономической ортодоксии, которая в то время была довольно дальтоником. Bununla birlikte, o zamanlar oldukça renk körü olan ilerici ekonomik ortodokside kariyerimde de reşit oldum. It was mostly focused on the rules of taxation, labor policy, spending and investment. Il était principalement axé sur les règles de fiscalité, la politique du travail, les dépenses et l'investissement. Ağırlıklı olarak vergilendirme, işgücü politikası, harcama ve yatırım kuralları üzerinde duruldu. All of these issues that have, of course, racially disparate impacts and racial disparities to them. Tous ces problèmes qui ont, bien sûr, des impacts racialement disparates et des disparités raciales pour eux. Все эти проблемы, конечно же, имеют разные расовые последствия и расовые различия. Elbette, ırksal olarak farklı etkileri ve ırksal eşitsizlikleri olan bu konuların tümü. But they weren't seen as racial issues. Ama bunlar ırksal sorunlar olarak görülmedi. They were seen as economic issues. Ekonomik sorunlar olarak görülüyorlardı. And so, the thing I learned as a young policy wonk was there's economic inequality and racism makes that inequality worse for people of color. Et donc, la chose que j'ai apprise en tant que jeune fanatique de la politique, c'est qu'il y a des inégalités économiques et que le racisme aggrave cette inégalité pour les personnes de couleur. Ve böylece, genç bir politika kazası olarak öğrendiğim şey, ekonomik eşitsizlik olduğu ve ırkçılığın bu eşitsizliği beyaz olmayan insanlar için daha da kötüleştirdiğiydi. And I had a few experiences as I was sort of growing up in my career that sort of tried to turn the light on for me. И у меня было несколько опытов, когда я рос в своей карьере, и это вроде попыталось зажечь для меня свет. Ve kariyerimde büyürken, ışığı benim için açmaya çalışan birkaç deneyimim oldu. And point me in this direction of what I would eventually do, which is flip that formulation. Et orientez-moi dans cette direction de ce que je ferais éventuellement, c'est-à-dire inverser cette formulation. Ve beni sonunda yapacağım şeye yönlendirin, bu da formülasyonu ters çevirmek. Not that there's inequality, and racism makes it worse for people of color, but rather racism, structural racism, political and strategic racism makes inequality happen for everyone. Eşitsizlik olduğundan ve ırkçılık beyaz olmayanlar için durumu daha da kötüleştirdiğinden değil, daha çok ırkçılık, yapısal ırkçılık, politik ve stratejik ırkçılık eşitsizliği herkes için yaratıyor. It is the driver of inequality. Eşitsizliğin itici gücüdür.

BILL MOYERS: You had the sense, that many white Americans believe there's an “us” and a “them.” And what's good for them is bad for us. BILL MOYERS: Pek çok beyaz Amerikalının bir “biz” ve bir “onlar” olduğuna inandığı hissine kapıldınız. Ve onlar için iyi olan bizim için kötüdür. They want our jobs. İşimizi istiyorlar. They want our schools. They want our neighborhoods. Mahallelerimizi istiyorlar. There became something fearful in the response that reflected an unwillingness to see beyond the gap to what you were talking about. Il y a eu quelque chose d'effrayant dans la réponse qui reflétait une réticence à voir au-delà de l'écart avec ce dont vous parliez. Yanıtta, bahsettiğiniz şeyin boşluğunun ötesini görme konusundaki isteksizliği yansıtan korkulu bir şey oldu. The white working class. Beyaz işçi sınıfı. And the Black working class, they were all in the same boat. Ve Siyah işçi sınıfı, hepsi aynı gemideydi. They just didn't row together. Sadece birlikte kürek çekmediler.

HEATHER MCGHEE: That's exactly right. HEATHER MCGHEE: Aynen öyle. It is that zero-sum paradigm that I think is at the heart of our dysfunction as a society. C'est ce paradigme à somme nulle qui, je pense, est au cœur de notre dysfonctionnement en tant que société. Bir toplum olarak işlevsizliğimizin merkezinde olduğunu düşündüğüm sıfır toplamlı paradigma. The idea that, although we are, of course, one people and in many ways, our fortunes rise and fall together, and it's particularly predominant among white Americans, this view that there's a zero-sum racial competition. L'idée que, bien que nous soyons, bien sûr, un seul peuple et à bien des égards, nos fortunes montent et descendent ensemble, et c'est particulièrement prédominant chez les Américains blancs, ce point de vue qu'il y a une compétition raciale à somme nulle. Tabii ki, tek bir insan olmamıza ve birçok yönden, servetimizin birlikte yükselip alçaldığı fikri ve özellikle beyaz Amerikalılar arasında baskın olan bu görüş, sıfır toplamlı bir ırk rekabeti olduğu görüşü.

BILL MOYERS: Zero-sum, meaning?

HEATHER MCGHEE: Meaning what I have comes at your expense. HEATHER MCGHEE : Ce que j'ai est à vos frais. ХИТЕР МАКГИ: То есть то, что у меня есть, происходит за ваш счет. HEATHER MCGHEE: Yani elimdekiler sizin pahasına geliyor. Meaning if you add up what I have and you've taken away, it's just a zero. Ce qui veut dire que si vous additionnez ce que j'ai et que vous en retirez, c'est juste un zéro. То есть, если вы сложите то, что у меня есть, и вы забрали, это просто ноль. Yani, benim sahip olduklarımı toplarsan ve benden aldığın şeyi alırsan, bu sadece bir sıfırdır. There is no mutual benefit or interest. Karşılıklı çıkar ve menfaat yoktur. It is one for one, eye for eye. Один к одному, око за око. Bire bir, göze gözdür. That paradigm, particularly at a time of rapid demographic change, when there is a narrative that white America is losing out, will not be the majority, and if they're not the numerical majority, they will not be the power majority. Bu paradigma, özellikle hızlı demografik değişim zamanında, beyaz Amerika'nın kaybettiğine dair bir anlatı olduğunda çoğunluk olmayacak ve eğer sayısal çoğunluk değilse, güç çoğunluğu olmayacak. And they will be treated, potentially, as minorities have been treated under a white dominant society. И потенциально к ним будут относиться так же, как к меньшинствам в обществе, где доминируют белые. Ve onlara, potansiyel olarak, beyaz egemen bir toplumda azınlıklara davranıldığı gibi davranılacaktır. It's very deep. Çok derin. So, I went to discover where it came from. Bu yüzden, nereden geldiğini keşfetmek için gittim. And I had to sort of unlearn a lot of bad history that I had learned growing up as an American child. И мне пришлось как бы забыть много плохой истории, которую я выучил, когда был американским ребенком. Ve Amerikalı bir çocuk olarak büyürken öğrendiğim pek çok kötü tarihi bir şekilde unutmak zorunda kaldım. And really identify how that zero-sum racial paradigm was sort of the lie at the root of our founding. Et identifiez vraiment comment ce paradigme racial à somme nulle était en quelque sorte le mensonge à la racine de notre fondation. И действительно определите, как эта расовая парадигма с нулевой суммой была своего рода ложью, лежащей в основе нашего основания. Ve bu sıfır toplamlı ırk paradigmasının, kuruluşumuzun temelindeki yalanın nasıl olduğunu gerçekten tespit edin. And it was used by the plantation class and the colonial class in order to justify chattel slavery and near genocide of Indigenous peoples and sell that brutal economy to the majority of white people who were landless white people. Et il a été utilisé par la classe des plantations et la classe coloniale pour justifier l'esclavage des biens meubles et le quasi-génocide des peuples autochtones et vendre cette économie brutale à la majorité des Blancs qui étaient des Blancs sans terre. Ve plantasyon sınıfı ve sömürge sınıfı tarafından, Yerli halkların köleliğini ve soykırıma yakınlığını haklı çıkarmak ve bu vahşi ekonomiyi topraksız beyaz insanların çoğunluğuna satmak için kullanıldı. And it's become a sort of core weapon for people who want to concentrate wealth, who want to aggregate power. Ve serveti yoğunlaştırmak isteyen, gücü toplamak isteyen insanlar için bir tür temel silah haline geldi. I mean, obviously, in the Trump era, it's more naked and vivid than it's ever been. Demek istediğim, açıkçası, Trump döneminde her zamankinden daha çıplak ve canlı. The constant scapegoating and the punching down, while, of course, the only thing that the regime delivers is tax cuts for itself and unemployment for millions more. Les boucs émissaires constants et les coups de poing, alors que, bien sûr, la seule chose que le régime offre est des réductions d'impôts pour lui-même et du chômage pour des millions d'autres. Постоянные козлы отпущения и удары руками, хотя, конечно, единственное, что предлагает режим, - это снижение налогов для себя и безработица для миллионов других. Sürekli günah keçisi yapmak ve aşağılamak, elbette rejimin sunduğu tek şey, kendisi için vergi indirimleri ve milyonlarca insan için işsizlik.

BILL MOYERS: Give me a thumbnail sketch of what was in your mind as you saw the opposite of what our society could be. BILL MOYERS: Donnez-moi un aperçu de ce qui était dans votre esprit lorsque vous avez vu le contraire de ce que pourrait être notre société. БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: Дайте мне набросок того, что было у вас в голове, когда вы видели противоположность тому, каким могло бы быть наше общество. BILL MOYERS: Toplumumuzun ne olabileceğinin tam tersini gördüğünüzde aklınızdan geçenlerin küçük bir taslağını bana verin.

HEATHER MCGHEE: I ended up including, in the end, a chapter about the moral costs of racism, the personal costs. HEATHER MCGHEE: Sonunda, ırkçılığın ahlaki maliyetleri ve kişisel maliyetleri hakkında bir bölüm ekledim. I came at it from an economic policy standpoint. Je l'ai abordé du point de vue de la politique économique. Ben olaya ekonomik politika açısından geldim. I do this work, this policy work, out of a faith in the unseen. Je fais ce travail, ce travail politique, par foi dans l'invisible. Я делаю эту работу, эту политическую работу из веры в невидимое. Bu işi, bu politika işini, görünmeyene olan inancımdan yapıyorum. Because it is unseen. Parce que c'est invisible. Çünkü görülmez. A multiracial democracy with a robust safety net and social contract that doesn't have an asterisk by it. Une démocratie multiraciale dotée d'un filet de sécurité solide et d'un contrat social sans astérisque. Многорасовая демократия с надежной сетью безопасности и социальным контрактом, рядом с которым нет звездочки. Sağlam bir güvenlik ağına ve yıldız işareti olmayan sosyal sözleşmeye sahip çok ırklı bir demokrasi. That doesn't limit it to the people of the ruling class and to whites only. Bu, onu yalnızca yönetici sınıfın insanlarıyla ve sadece beyazlarla sınırlamaz. You know, it's really important to rewrite what I understood as the core economic narrative on the left, which was that there was a New Deal era– started in the '30s and in the '40s and '50s. Vous savez, il est vraiment important de réécrire ce que j'ai compris comme le récit économique central à gauche, à savoir qu'il y avait une ère du New Deal – commencée dans les années 30 et dans les années 40 et 50. Вы знаете, действительно важно переписать то, что я понимал как основную экономическую концепцию слева, а именно, что была эра Нового курса - начавшаяся в 30-х, 40-х и 50-х годах. Bilirsiniz, soldaki temel ekonomik anlatı olarak anladığım şeyi yeniden yazmak gerçekten önemli, yani 30'larda, 40'larda ve 50'lerde başlayan bir Yeni Anlaşma dönemi vardı. This era of shared prosperity where we built the great American middle class. Büyük Amerikan orta sınıfını inşa ettiğimiz bu ortak refah çağı. It's very clear that each and every one of those investments, each and every one of those contracts for high union density, high wages, subsidization of education and housing, all of that had an asterisk and was done in a racially restrictive way by our government. Il est très clair que chacun de ces investissements, chacun de ces contrats pour une forte densité syndicale, des salaires élevés, des subventions à l'éducation et au logement, tout cela avait un astérisque et a été fait d'une manière raciale restrictive par notre gouvernement . Совершенно очевидно, что каждая из этих инвестиций, каждый из этих контрактов на высокую плотность профсоюзов, высокую заработную плату, субсидирование образования и жилья - все это помечено звездочкой и было сделано нашим правительством в расовых ограничениях. . Bu yatırımların her birinin, yüksek sendika yoğunluğu, yüksek ücretler, eğitim ve barınma sübvansiyonu sözleşmelerinin her birinin bir yıldız işareti olduğu ve hükümetimiz tarafından ırksal olarak kısıtlayıcı bir şekilde yapıldığı çok açık. . And it was when in the 1960s we fought and struggled to remove that asterisk that that social contract frayed and we began to move into the Inequality Era. Et c'est lorsque, dans les années 1960, nous nous sommes battus et luttés pour supprimer cet astérisque que ce contrat social s'est effiloché et que nous avons commencé à entrer dans l'ère des inégalités. Ve 1960'larda, toplumsal sözleşmenin yıprandığı bu yıldız işaretini ortadan kaldırmak için mücadele ettiğimiz ve mücadele ettiğimiz ve Eşitsizlik Çağına geçmeye başladığımız zamandı. The central story at the heart of my book, Bill, is the story that was replicated in countless towns across the country, where public swimming pools that had been financed by tax dollars– we used to have over 2,000 in this country, these sort of grand resort pools that were the heart of communities. L'histoire centrale au cœur de mon livre, Bill, est l'histoire qui a été reproduite dans d'innombrables villes à travers le pays, où des piscines publiques qui avaient été financées par l'argent des contribuables – nous en avions plus de 2 000 dans ce pays, ce genre de grandes piscines de villégiature qui étaient le cœur des communautés. Центральная история моей книги, Билл, - это история, которая была воспроизведена в бесчисленных городах по всей стране, где общественные бассейны финансировались за счет налоговых долларов - у нас в этой стране было более 2000 таких бассейнов. большие бассейны курорта, которые были сердцем сообществ. Kitabımın kalbindeki ana hikaye, Bill, ülke çapında sayısız kasabada tekrarlanan hikayedir, vergi dolarlarıyla finanse edilen halka açık yüzme havuzları - bu ülkede 2.000'den fazla vardı, bu tür toplulukların kalbi olan büyük tatil havuzları. They were ways in which the government was sort of committing to a high, almost bourgeois quality of life for working and middle class people. C'étaient des moyens par lesquels le gouvernement s'engageait en quelque sorte à offrir une qualité de vie élevée, presque bourgeoise, aux travailleurs et aux classes moyennes. Это были способы, которыми правительство в некоторой степени обязалось обеспечить высокое, почти буржуазное качество жизни для людей рабочего и среднего класса. Hükümetin, işçi ve orta sınıf insanlar için yüksek, neredeyse burjuva bir yaşam kalitesi taahhüt ettiği yöntemlerdi. It was bringing together, you know, white folks of different European ancestry and immigrants and having them sort of all meet in this social commons of recreation. Cela rassemblait, vous savez, des Blancs d'ascendance européenne différente et des immigrants et les faisait tous se rencontrer en quelque sorte dans ce commun social de récréation. Он собирал вместе, знаете ли, белых людей разного европейского происхождения и иммигрантов и заставлял их всех встречаться в этом социальном достоянии отдыха. Farklı Avrupa kökenli ve göçmenlerden gelen beyaz insanları bir araya getirmek ve hepsini bir şekilde bu sosyal rekreasyon ortak alanlarında buluşturmaktı. They were often segregated and whites only. Genellikle ayrıydılar ve sadece beyazlardı. And when in the 1950s the country began to require, often through the courts, that these pools were integrated, so many towns across the country, and not just in the South, decided to drain their public swimming pools rather than integrate them. Et quand dans les années 1950 le pays a commencé à exiger, souvent par voie judiciaire, que ces piscines soient intégrées, tant de villes à travers le pays, et pas seulement dans le Sud, ont décidé de vider leurs piscines publiques plutôt que de les intégrer. И когда в 1950-х годах страна стала требовать, часто через суды, чтобы эти бассейны были объединены, многие города по всей стране, а не только на юге, решили слить воду из своих общественных бассейнов, а не интегрировать их. Ve 1950'lerde ülke, genellikle mahkemeler aracılığıyla, bu havuzların entegre edilmesini talep etmeye başladığında, sadece Güney'de değil, ülke genelindeki pek çok kasaba, halka açık yüzme havuzlarını entegre etmektense boşaltmaya karar verdi.

BILL MOYERS: That happened, I regret to tell you, in my hometown. BILL MOYERS: Bu oldu, üzülerek söylüyorum, memleketimde. Why didn't the Civil Rights Act of '64, the Voting Rights Act of '65 and other changes in that early half of the '60s, bring about this more equal society with adequately funded schools and reliable infrastructure, with wages that keep families out of poverty and a public health system that can handle all comers, including pandemics? Pourquoi le Civil Rights Act de '64, le Voting Rights Act de '65 et d'autres changements dans cette première moitié des années 60, n'ont-ils pas apporté cette société plus égalitaire avec des écoles correctement financées et des infrastructures fiables, avec des salaires qui maintiennent les familles sortir de la pauvreté et un système de santé publique qui peut gérer tous les arrivants, y compris les pandémies? Почему Закон о гражданских правах 64-го года, Закон об избирательных правах 65-го и другие изменения в первой половине 60-х не привели к созданию более равноправного общества с адекватно финансируемыми школами и надежной инфраструктурой, с заработной платой, позволяющей удерживать семьи? из бедности и системы общественного здравоохранения, способной справиться со всеми, включая пандемии? Neden '64'ün Sivil Haklar Yasası, '65'in Oy Hakları Yasası ve 60'ların ilk yarısındaki diğer değişiklikler, yeterince finanse edilen okullara ve güvenilir altyapıya, aileleri ayakta tutan maaşlara sahip bu daha eşit toplumu getirmedi? yoksulluktan ve pandemiler de dahil olmak üzere tüm gelenlerle başa çıkabilecek bir halk sağlığı sistemi?

HEATHER MCGHEE: I open the book by positing it in the form of, “Why can't we just have nice things,” right? HEATHER MCGHEE : J'ouvre le livre en le posant sous la forme « Pourquoi ne pouvons-nous pas simplement avoir de belles choses », n'est-ce pas ? HEATHER MCGHEE: Kitabı “Neden sadece güzel şeylere sahip olamıyoruz” şeklinde konumlandırarak açıyorum, değil mi?

BILL MOYERS: Right.

HEATHER MCGHEE: You know, the answer is racism. And not just sort of individual, ugly, violent racism. Not biological racism. The belief system that every Black is sort of inherently inferior to white people. Her Siyah'ın doğası gereği beyaz insanlardan daha aşağı olduğuna dair inanç sistemi. After the Civil Rights Movement, a few phenomena happened to drain the pool of our society altogether. После Движения за гражданские права произошло несколько явлений, полностью опустошивших бассейн нашего общества. Sivil Haklar Hareketi'nden sonra, toplumumuzun havuzunu tamamen boşaltan birkaç fenomen oldu. One, the will among white Americans to have basically a robust commons, to have a public pool at all, began to just plummet. Premièrement, la volonté des Américains blancs d'avoir essentiellement des biens communs solides, d'avoir une piscine publique, a commencé à s'effondrer. Во-первых, стремление белых американцев иметь в основном надежные общинные ресурсы, вообще иметь общественный бассейн, стало просто стремительно падать. Birincisi, beyaz Amerikalılar arasındaki temel olarak sağlam bir müştereklere sahip olma, halka açık bir havuza sahip olma isteği, birden düşmeye başladı. I looked back at some public opinion polling about the idea that we should have high wages that keep people out of poverty, a guaranteed income, and a job for anyone in America who wants one. İnsanları yoksulluktan uzak tutmak için yüksek ücretlere, garantili bir gelire ve Amerika'da isteyen herkes için bir işe sahip olmamız gerektiği fikriyle ilgili bazı kamuoyu yoklamalarına baktım. Up until the mid-1960s, the majority of white people agreed with that idea. 1960'ların ortalarına kadar beyazların çoğu bu fikirle hemfikirdi. They wanted a robust, active government that guaranteed a high quality of life. Yüksek yaşam kalitesini garanti eden sağlam, aktif bir hükümet istiyorlardı. And it was in the middle of the 1960s, in fact, when that demand began to be echoed prominently by the Black civil rights movement who marched on Washington for jobs and freedom, had a list of demands that included a jobs guarantee and a high minimum wage, that that support by white people almost vanished. Фактически, это было в середине 1960-х годов, когда это требование начало активно поддерживаться движением за гражданские права чернокожих, которое двинулось на Вашингтон в поисках рабочих мест и свободы и имело список требований, который включал гарантию рабочих мест и высокий минимум. заработная плата, что поддержка белых людей почти исчезла. Ve aslında, 1960'ların ortasındaydı, bu talep, iş ve özgürlük için Washington'a yürüyen, iş garantisi ve yüksek asgari ücret içeren bir talep listesine sahip olan Siyah sivil haklar hareketi tarafından belirgin bir şekilde yankılanmaya başladı. Beyazların bu desteği neredeyse yok oldu. And you began to see the white majority move towards a conservative economic vision that basically, you know, picked up their toys and went home. Ve beyaz çoğunluğun temelde, bilirsiniz, oyuncaklarını alıp eve giden muhafazakar bir ekonomik vizyona doğru ilerlediğini görmeye başladınız. In the pool metaphor, communities ended up having private swimming clubs that you had to pay $50 for. Havuz metaforunda, topluluklar, 50 dolar ödemek zorunda olduğunuz özel yüzme kulüplerine sahip oldular. They ended up having backyard pools. Sonunda arka bahçe havuzları oldu. You had to be rich enough to have that. Buna sahip olmak için yeterince zengin olman gerekiyordu. We lost out on the idea of a guarantee of a decent quality of life for everyone. Herkes için iyi bir yaşam kalitesi garantisi fikrini kaybettik. And it really was about the shift among white Americans from the New Deal consensus because the people that they had been taught for generations were inferior and dangerous, were suddenly allowed to swim in the same pool. И на самом деле речь шла об отклонении среди белых американцев от консенсуса Нового курса, потому что люди, которых их учили на протяжении многих поколений, были низшими и опасными, им внезапно разрешили плавать в одном бассейне. Ve bu gerçekten beyaz Amerikalılar arasındaki New Deal konsensüsünden geçişle ilgiliydi, çünkü nesiller boyu kendilerine öğretilen insanlar aşağılık ve tehlikeliydiler, aniden aynı havuzda yüzmelerine izin verildi. And that seemed like a betrayal. Ve bu bir ihanet gibi görünüyordu. It made all things public seem dirty and a place they didn't want to be. Из-за этого все публично казалось грязным и нежелательным. Herkese açık olan her şeyi kirli ve olmak istemedikleri bir yer haline getirdi. Including the major vehicles of collective action in this country: labor unions and the government. Включая основные средства коллективных действий в этой стране: профсоюзы и правительство. Bu ülkedeki başlıca toplu eylem araçları dahil: işçi sendikaları ve hükümet. And you began to see white people turn away from those institutions once they were more integrated. Ve beyazların daha fazla entegre olduklarında bu kurumlardan uzaklaştığını görmeye başladınız.