Trump, Barr, Stone and Cohn: Apocalypse on the Potomac (1)
ANNOUNCER: Welcome to MOYERS ON DEMOCRACY for a conversation about Roger Stone, William Barr, and Donald Trump – with a glancing reference to Roy Cohn. Bill's guest is the lawyer Steven Harper, who with his daughter Emma Harper created “The Trump-Russia Timeline” and now “The Pandemic Timeline.” These valuable resources for journalists and citizens can be found at BillMoyers.com and Dan Rather's News & Guts. Before his retirement, Steven was a litigator at Kirkland & Ellis in Chicago and cited as one of the Best Lawyers in America. Here now is Bill Moyers.
BILL MOYERS: Steve, it's good to not only hear you now, but to see you. This is the first time I've seen you in our conversations.
STEVEN HARPER: Well, it's great to see you, Bill, really terrific. Thanks for having me on.
BILL MOYERS: What did you think when you heard that President Trump had commuted Roger Stone's prison sentence?
STEVEN HARPER: I was shocked, but not surprised. How's that? To me, it's the culmination of what has been happening since Barr became attorney general. Even before he became attorney general. You know, people forget that the way Bill Barr got his job was by sending an unsolicited memorandum to the Justice Department in the summer of 2018 saying that Mueller's investigation was out of bounds, that under no circumstances should Trump sit for any kind of questioning of Mueller. And lo and behold, six months later Donald Trump has finally found his Roy Cohn. To me, that's the most discouraging part of the thing as a lawyer.
RELATED: Democracy & Government BILL MOYERS: What do you mean when you say Trump has discovered his Roy Cohn?
STEVEN HARPER: As you know, Roy was the famous McCarthy hatchet man who spared no weapons and took no prisoners. And he was Trump's ultimate fixer. He was Trump's father's attorney for a while. Ironically enough, it was Cohn who introduced Trump to Roger Stone. It's the very first entry in my Trump Russia timeline is the Cohn-Roger Stone-Trump connection. And now the circle is complete. Who would've thought you would ever yearn for the days of Jeff Sessions as attorney general, right? Even Sessions wouldn't go to the lengths that Barr has gone to to protect Trump, to undermine Mueller, whom he characterized during his confirmation hearing as a friend, which is somewhat remarkable to me, to punish Trump's enemies and to reward his friends. Roger Stone is truly a central player in this. And he stands for so much of what we know and also don't know about the Trump-Russia investigation.
BILL MOYERS: Why does commuting Stone's sentence matter?
STEVEN HARPER: Well, it matters 'cause it springs him. You know, it gives him freedom. Here's a guy who was convicted of seven felony counts. He lied to Congress repeatedly. He threatened witnesses actually, with physical violence. He's a central player in all of this. And the fact that you would commute the sentence of a person who has done everything he could to, number one, frustrate the Trump-Russia investigation. Number two, knows terrible things about Trump, I believe, and Russia, and that Mueller, some of the latest unredacted pieces make that clear. It's just a travesty. And he's yet another poster child of what's wrong with justice in America. There are two systems. If you know the right people, if you have the right kind of resources, you can avoid prison for some crimes that actually threaten democracy.
BILL MOYERS: Five counts of perjury, guilty. One count of obstructing Congress, guilty. One count of tampering with a witness, guilty. The federal judge, as you know, who sentenced Stone, acknowledged that he'd been prosecuted for, quote, “Covering up the president.”
STEVEN HARPER: That's right.
BILL MOYERS: That's the judge who sentenced him summing up the case. But now he's going free by the president's own decree. The man for whom he covered up is setting him free.
STEVEN HARPER: Well, that's what makes this so much worse than Richard Nixon. And I don't have to remind you of all the terrible things that happened with Richard Nixon. But the commutation in this case, which is what makes it, I think, so much more heinous than anything Nixon did, it's the culminating act of obstruction of justice with respect to Roger Stone, who constantly said, you know, “I'm never gonna turn on him. I'm an honest guy.” And then Trump would, you know, tweet in response, “Boy, it's good to see people with guts.” It's all in plain sight, as it always is with Trump.
BILL MOYERS: Can this be anything but a reward for Stone keeping his lips sealed about Trump's own involvement in the Russian campaign?
STEVEN HARPER: No. I don't see how. None of the so-called justifications for the commutation make any sense. It never went through the formal Department of Justice commutation process. In order to have a sentence commuted, at least, as I understand the rules, you have to at least have served some time in prison. This guy walks before he ever went across the threshold. And there's no other way to see what happened here other than a reward for someone to remain silent. I mean, if you had John Gotti in the White House, I mean, you'd expect this sort of thing.
BILL MOYERS: But the conduct, the behavior, the outspoken– I mean, Stone actually boasted that he had remained silent. And Trump, as you say, praised him for his quote “guts” in not cooperating with the prosecutors. Isn't that pretty much of an admission that it's one more step in the cover up?
STEVEN HARPER: I think so. I don't see how you can see it as anything else. I really don't. Stone is a guy who– I think from the beginning, he was the central intermediary between the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks. Before, during, and after the election. And then you have this endless, you know, as only Roger Stone could, bragging about how central he was and how he was in touch with WikiLeaks throughout the fall of 2016, and how often he talked to Trump and so on.
BILL MOYERS: So why was Stone's lying to Congress so serious to the Russian investigation?
RELATED: Democracy & Government STEVEN HARPER: Because what he lied about was central to the investigation. He lied about whether or not he had documents. He lied about the nature of his communications with WikiLeaks. He lied about who he had communications with. He was lying about matters that went to the core, I believe, of the Russian investigation. But, you know, what makes Barr particularly dangerous is that he's a lot craftier and he's a lot smarter than Trump. And I really believe that they're using the pandemic to cover a host of sins. And I fear that there are more to come, although I couldn't even begin to tell you what they might be. But, you know, from Flynn to Stone to whatever October surprises Barr has been cooking up with John Durham– you know, they've got this whole sideshow going–
BILL MOYERS: John Durham is the veteran prosecutor– been serving in Connecticut, whom Barr has appointed to investigate the investigation by the FBI of Trump and Russia.
STEVEN HARPER: Precisely right. And the issue there, of course, is that neither Trump nor Barr like the notion that the investigation at its origins was properly opened. So even though Mueller concluded that it was properly opened, even though Inspector General Horowitz concluded it was properly opened, even though the Senate Intelligence Committee, led by the GOP concluded that the investigation originally was properly opened, one of the first things that Barr did was appoint somebody to take another look at this and say, “Well, let's see if it was properly opened.”
BILL MOYERS: You remind me that the congressional committee that Stone lied to was Republican controlled. Does it ever cross your mind that some of those Republicans are relieved now that the country will never know why they let him get away with it?
STEVEN HARPER: Well, eventually the truth will out here. And it won't surprise me in the least if Stone does it himself in a tell-all book 'cause he could make some money doing it. I mean, that's the way these things work. Eventually it unravels. Whether you and I will live to see the ultimate unraveling is not clear, but the judgment of history is not gonna be kind to any of these Republicans who have continued to sit on their hands and just remain silent while all this has unfolded.
BILL MOYERS: But they will be dead, and what judgment will pass on them?
STEVEN HARPER: I don't know if you remember– in one of Barr's early interviews, after he was criticized, as he properly should've been, for trying to spin the Mueller report out of existence before releasing it, during an interview, somebody asked him, “Aren't you worried about your legacy? Aren't you worried about history?” And his comment was a very straightforward, “Everybody dies.” So, you know, you're in a world where if you don't care, I guess you can convince yourself a lot of things are okay.
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BILL MOYERS: But they may, in time, in history, in death, be judged by this. But what's the damage being done now?
STEVEN HARPER: Horrible. I think it's just absolutely horrible. And I think people don't realize– maybe lawyers have a greater sensitivity to this, although some of my disdain, frankly, is for people like Barr and other enablers with law degrees that are allowing this sort of thing to happen. You know, people bristle at comparisons, you know, to dictators like Hitler and Mussolini. But, you know, Hitler couldn't have done any of the things that he did without lawyer enablers helping him along the way.
BILL MOYERS: Did you read the piece in the NEW YORK TIMES by one of the prosecutors in the Mueller investigation, Andrew Weissmann?
STEVEN HARPER: Yes.
BILL MOYERS: He said that we might get the truth from Stone, some grand jury would call him back and tell him, “Why did you lie to Congress?” Just begin with that premise. And that would start it all over again even though his sentence has been commuted?
STEVEN HARPER: Well, it could. He'd be being asked a new set of questions under oath and therefore creating new opportunities for himself to lie. So, each new appearance creates the new potential for legal jeopardy. There was another article I read along similar lines by Neal Katyal, who was the acting solicitor general for President Obama for a time. And he also suggests that the Stone story may not be over. I do have to say, at the end of the day, as a practical matter, I don't hold out a whole lot of hope that any of those things are likely to happen. I fear that politicians might say, well, we just don't wanna go down that road. But the road that Trump has taken us down already has been so fraught, and is continuing to be so fraught with danger for democracy that I think it's imperative that we hold him accountable.
BILL MOYERS: So you don't think there's any possibility that Attorney General Barr wants to pursue Stone to get at the truth?
STEVEN HARPER: (LAUGH) I'm sorry, if you intended it as a serious question—
BILL MOYERS: I was just seeing—
STEVEN HARPER: No. Nope, I couldn't even restrain myself in response to a rhetorical question.
