The Dead Languages of the Classic World, Ancient Greek and Latin | Chat with Luke of @polýMATHY (1) |||||||||||||Лука||полиматия |||||||||||||||polýMATHY |||||||||||||||polímata |||||||||||||Luke||polýMATHY |||||||||||||||polýMATHY |||||||||||||ルーク||ポリマティー Die toten Sprachen der klassischen Welt, Altgriechisch und Latein | Chat mit Lukas von @polýMATHY (1) Las lenguas muertas del mundo clásico, el griego antiguo y el latín | Chat con Luke de @polýMATHY (1) Les langues mortes du monde classique, le grec ancien et le latin | Chat avec Luke de @polýMATHY (1) Le lingue morte del mondo classico, il greco antico e il latino | Conversazione con Luke di @polýMATHY (1) 古典世界の死語、古代ギリシャ語とラテン語｜@polýMATHYのルークとおしゃべり (1) 고전 세계의 죽은 언어, 고대 그리스어와 라틴어 | @polýMATHY의 루크와 대화하기 (1) Martwe języki klasycznego świata, starożytna greka i łacina | Czat z Łukaszem z @polýMATHY (1) As línguas mortas do mundo clássico, o grego antigo e o latim | Conversa com Lucas de @polýMATHY (1) Мертвые языки классического мира, древнегреческий и латинский | Пообщайтесь с Люком из @polýMATHY (1) Мертві мови класичного світу, давньогрецька та латина | Чат з Лукою з @polýMATHY (1) 古典世界的死语言，古希腊语和拉丁语 |与@polýMATHY 的 Luke 聊天 (1) 古典世界的死語言，古希臘語和拉丁語 |與@polýMATHY 的 Luke 聊天 (1)

Hello, Steve here again and today I have a special treat. ||||||||||suražojums ||||||||||prelibatezza ||||||||||sorpresa especial

Uh, I'm not going to talk sort of about learning modern languages.

I'm gonna talk about to some extent ancient languages and learning |||||||||と| ||||||cierto grado||||

and have a very interesting guest, Luke Ranieri of polýMATHY. |||||||Ранери|| |||||||Ranieri|| |||||||||polýMATHY |||||||Ranieri|| |||||||||polýMATHY |||||||Ranieri|| ||||||لوک رانیری|رانیری|| ||||||ルーク|ルーク・ラニエリ||ポリマティー

And remember, before we get into this, if you enjoy my videos, please subscribe,

click on the bell for notification. |||||paziņojumu

If you follow me on a podcast service, please leave a review.

I do appreciate it.

So Luke, I was watching your videos yesterday.

Really enjoyed them.

The first thing that I think is interesting is the term polymathy. |||||||||||полиматия |||||||||||polymathie |||||||||||multidisciplinary knowledge |||||||||||polimatia |||||||||||博学 |||||||||||polimatia |||||||||||polimātija |||||||||||چنددانشی |||||||||||ポリマシー |||||||||||polimatía

A lot of people think that math, math has in mathematics, means numbers. ||||||||||mathematics||

Arithmetic. arithmétique Arithmetic expression 算术 aritmetica حساب ریاضی 算数

Please explain a, the term polymathy and b, your interest in ancient languages. |||||博学||||||| |||||полиматия||||||| Пожалуйста, объясните а, термин полиматия и б, ваш интерес к древним языкам.

Oh, Steve, you're asking me about the etymology one of my favorite topics |||||||этимология||||| |||||||étymologie||||| |||||||word origin||||| |||||||词源||||| |||||||ریشه‌شناسی||||| |||||||語源|||||

and something I do like to talk about on my polýMATHY channel from time |||||||||||канале||

to time, the Greek word, Monthano or Montano for an even ancient more ancient |||||Монтано||Монтано|||||| |||||Monthano||Montano|||||| |||||to learn||Montano (1)|||||| |||||Monthano||Montano|||||| |||||Monthano||Montano|||||| |||||Monthano|||||||| |||||月亮||蒙塔诺|||||| |||||モンターノ||モンターノ||||||

pronunciation it means "I learn".

So, uh, that the root of it, which is that M A T H math is about learning. ||||根|||||||||||||

So like...

in modern Greek pronunciation is "a student".

And uh, so the, uh, so a polymath is a student of many things and my background |||||||эрудит||||||||| |||||||polymathe||||||||| |||||||knowledgeable individual||||||||| |||||||polímata||||||||| |||||||polimata||||||||| |||||||polimāts||||||||| |||||||博学者||||||||| |||||||博学者||||||||| ||||||||||||||||formación académica

isn't exclusively in languages. منحصراً نیست||| |только|| |仅仅||

In fact, that's what I've mostly done until more recently, I'd say, ||||||||||می‌گویم|

as a hobby on the side that I've been teaching languages for years.

Um, uh, but also I have background in science and I have

uh, done uh military aviation. ||||هوانوردی نظامی ||||aviation ||||aviation ||||aviazione ||||航空

So I have these different interests that I've, um, coalesced together |||||||||объединил| |||||||||rassemblé| |||||||||merged| |||||||||unido| |||||||||汇聚| |||||||||fuso| |||||||||apvienoju| |||||||||ترکیب کرده‌ام| |||||||||fusionado juntos|

essentially into one or two channels.

My other channel being, um, Latin and Greek, which is ScorpioMartianus. ||канал||||||||СкорпионМартианус ||||||||||ScorpioMartianus ||||||||||Scorpio Martianus ||||||||||ScorpioMartianus ||||||||||ScorpioMartianus ||||||||||ScorpioMartianus ||||||||||スコーピオ・マルティアヌス

Okay.

First of all, I will leave a link to Luke's channel polýMATHY |||||||||لوک|| |||||||||Luke's channel|| ||||verrò|||||di Luke|| |||||||||Лукиного|| |||||||||ルークの||

in the description box.

The quality of your videos Luke is tremendous. качество||||||| Люк, качество твоих видео потрясающее.

The video quality, the audio quality of the content, it's all excellent.

And, uh, I was enjoying, uh, I also saw a video by the way, where you went ||||||||ai vu|||||||| И, э, я наслаждался, э, я также видел видео, кстати, где ты был

around in Italy, I think it was in Rome, asking Italians if they spoke Latin ||||||||رم||ایتالیایی‌ها||||

and that they, some of them thought they did, but in fact, didn't, um... ||||||pensaban||||||| и что они, некоторые из них думали, что сделали, но на самом деле, нет...

we have Latin that LingQ.

Uh, I haven't studied Latin at LingQ, one of the issues is pronunciation. |я||||||||||| ||n'ai pas|||||||||| ||||||||||problemas|| Я не изучал латынь в LingQ, одна из проблем - произношение.

How confident are we about how Latin was pronounced? Насколько мы уверены в том, как произносилась латынь?

Oh, that that is a fascinating, important question. О, это увлекательный, важный вопрос.

Um, because we have essentially more than one standard. Хм, потому что у нас по сути больше одного стандарта.

There are two very big standards of Latin pronunciation and one that is probably in |||||基準||||||||| Есть два очень больших стандарта латинского произношения и один, который, вероятно,

some ways, uh, better known to the layman would be the ecclesiastical pronunciation |||||||обывателю||||церковное| |manières||||||profane||||ecclésiastique| |||||||general public||||church-related| |||||||||||eclesiástica| |||||||غیر روحانی||||| |||||||||||kirchlich| |||||||laico||||ecclesiastica| |||||||laikam||||| |||||||外行人||||教会的| |||||||素人||||教会の| |||||||profano||||eclesiástica|

or the traditional, national pronunciation of Latin in Italy, which, uh, for

about 115 years has been the standard pronunciation of Latin in the church.

However, even before that was really codafide and standardized the classical ||||||кодифицировано||стандартизированным|| ||||||codifié||standardisé|| ||||||codified|||| ||||||codificada|||| ||||||规范化||标准化的|| ||||||kodifiziert|||| ||||||codafide|||| ||||||koda fiksēšana|||| ||||||کدگذاری شده||استاندارد شده|| ||||||コダフィデ||標準化された|| ||||||codificado y estandarizado||||

pronunciation that is an attempt to reconstruct that ancient pronunciation. ||||||воссоздать||| ||||||reconstruire||| ||||||recreate||| ||||||重建||| ||||||بازسازی کردن||| ||||||再現する|||

What's interesting too, is that Latin has never, has never, um,

gone out of fashion completely. |||мода| |||pasado de moda| полностью вышел из моды.

That is, there's always, there's always been fluent speakers То есть всегда, всегда были свободно говорящие

in the world and writers.

Uh, so whatever pronunciation these people have used has been after the

end of the language, being a living language, which happens about a thousand ||||||||||||mille

or so years ago, um, Latin is pronounced in all kinds of different ways.

So, uh, not super prescriptive to say that this is... ||||предписывающее||||| ||||prescriptif||||| ||||demanding clarity||||| ||||prescritiva||||| ||||prescrittivo||||| ||||noteicošs||||| ||||规定性的||||| ||||指示的||||| ||||muy específico||||| Так что не стоит говорить, что это...

you should pronounce Latin this way, especially if they're using the great ||||||||||the great|

content which is on LingQ and another friend and colleague who's contributing |||||||||||ieguldot ||||||||||که در حال| |||||||||||adding content |||||||||||вносит

a lot to LingQ, Carla Hurt from Found in Antiquity, she's been putting a ||||Карла|||||древности|||| ||||Carla|||||l'Antiquité|||| ||||Carla Hurt|||||ancient times|||| |||||||||古代|||| ||||Carla||||||||| ||||کارلا هرت||||||او دارد||| ||||カーラ|ハート|||||||| |||||||||Antigüedad||||

lot of stuff there and I'm really...

Oh, I got to go there and do it some time.

But it is true, you know, central Europeans say ... Italians |||||||اروپایی‌ها||

say ... uh, whereas presumably it's... |||大概| |||likely|

Right, which is...

you're absolutely right.

And most people are familiar with in school with the classical

over-stored classical pronunciation. |存储|| above||| |ストアされた|| |armazenada||

And that's because the C and the G uh, were pronounced cut and go until

about the fifth or sixth century AD. ||||||mūsu ēras

So when those specific pronunciation changes came. ||||||пришли |||específicos|||llegaron

But we're really confident.

And we know about the pronunciation from essentially three great sources.

One is ancient grammarians. |||دستورشناسان باستانی |||грамматики |||gramáticos antiguos |||古代语法学家

Ancient grammarians talk in great detail about pronunciation, but they

don't always get everything right.

They weren't linguists in the modern sense, really didn't |نبودند||||||| ||language experts||||||

exist until the past century.

Uh, thanks uh, to linguistic understanding, we can see how languages ||||language||||||

evolve in general and therefore understand how the pronunciation was, ||||donc||||| 進化する||||||||| evolucionar en general|||||||||

how it was an old, Latin pre-classical at that is, and then late Latin

so we can understand quite a lot.

And then the last thing would be just to look at the romance languages,

where languages, um, where, uh, how Latin actually changed and evolved,

and then understand regular processes.

Okay.

And another thing that's, uh, you know, I, I speak Italian, not very well, but I И еще одно, ну, вы знаете, я говорю по-итальянски, не очень хорошо, но я

speak Italian and I had Latin at school.

You speak very well.

I've enjoyed seeing you speak Italian. Мне понравилось видеть, как ты говоришь по-итальянски.

And Latin a couple of years of school.

Uh, I remember we, in order to remember the declensions, we would have contests |||||||||||||concours |||||||||word endings||||competitions |||||||||||||مسابقه‌ها |||||||||||||Wettbewerbe |||||||||||||gare |||||||||||||sacensības |||||||||变格||||比赛 |||||||||||||競争 |||||||||declinaciones||||

who could, who could decline bellum. |||||guerre ||||refuse to fight|war |||||جنگ |||||Krieg |||||karu ||||拒绝|战争 |||||戦争 ||||rechazar|guerra

The teacher would use a stop, stop watch. учитель|||||||

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I can't remember anymore, but that was Latin.

uh, I did study Greek, uh, at LingQ.

So tell me the difference between the say ancient Greek and, |dis|||||||||

and are we less sure about the pronunciation of ancient Greek or not.

And say ancient...

ancient Greek versus modern Greek, Latin versus say Italian, which

presumably is the closest to, or maybe it isn't, I don't know the 大概|||||||||||| |||nearest|||perhaps|||||| |||最も近い||||||||| |||más cercano a|||||||||

relationship between these ancient languages and their modern successors. ||||||||потомки ||||||||successeurs ||||||||descendants ||||||||后继者 ||||||||successori ||||||||pēcteči ||||||||جانشینان مدرن ||||||||後継者

Another one of my favorite topics.

Yeah.

Uh, so it's, um, for all intents and purposes, modern Greek and ancient Greek ||||||целей||||||| ||||||intentions||||||| ||||||purposes||||||| ||||||intentos||||||| ||||||实质上||||||| ||||||scopi||||||| ||||||مقاصد و اهداف||||||| ||||||目的|||||||

are different languages in the sense that Italian and Latin are different languages. são||||||||||||

Uh, Greeks, don't like to hear that because they have a very strong

affinity with their, their past. связь|||| connection|||| 亲密关系|||| affinità|||| saistība|||| وابستگی به گذشته‌شان|||| 親和性|||| afinidad con su pasado||||

And they're very proud of that, which is great. и||||||||

Um, and the fact that both of them are called Greek leads to an ||||||||||грек|||

inherent semantic confusion, which is interesting how, in general words... inhérente|sémantique|||||||| intrinsic|meaning|||||||| innewohnend||||||||| inherent|semantica|||||||| iedzimta||jautājums||||||| 固有的|语义|||||||| 固有の|意味||||||||

how important they really can be.

Um, there are definitely, there are about as many differences between |||noteikti|||||||

modern Greek and ancient Greek, as there are say between at least

Sardinian, which is a little bit more conservative than Italian and Latin... Сардинский||||||||||| sarde||||||||||| 撒丁岛的|||||||保守|||| sardo||||||||||| ساردینیایی||||||||||| サルデーニャ語|||||||||||

there clearly...

they just simply don't work grammatically in the same way though |||||دستوری||||| ||||||||||anche se ||||||||||sin embargo

there are a lot of similarities.

Um, as far as the pronunciation how certain are we about the pronunciation?

Oh my gosh. О|| ||Dio ||天哪

Well, pick a century and then I can tell you a bit more specifically, |选一个||||||||||||

but, um, a lot of people focus, if they're interested in restoring some |||||||||||atjaunošanas| |||||||||||بازیابی کردن| |||||||||||restaurer| |||||||||||修復する|

kind of ancient Greek pronunciation, they're interested in the fifth century

pronunciation specifically of...

Fifth century BC? ||p.m.ē. ||до н.э.

Yes exactly.

Pardon me.

Fifth century, BC, Athens. |||Афины |||Athènes |||Athens Greece |||Atene |||آتن قرن پنجم پیش از میلاد |||アテネ

Sorry, I'm already like... |я||

Glad you clarified. ||澄清 ||as tu clarifié ||explained ||hai chiarito ||明確にしてくれて

Fifth century BC Athens when we have a, we have Plato and Socrates and пятый||||||||||Платон||Сократ| ||||||||||Plato the philosopher||Socrates the philosopher| ||||||||||Platone||Socrate| ||||||||||プラトン||ソクラテス|

we have, uh, Sophocles or Stephanus. |||Софокл||Стефан |||Sophocle||Stéphane |||Sophocles or Stephanus||Stephanus edition |||Sófocles||Estêvão |||Sofocle||Stefano |||索福克勒斯||斯多噶斯 |||ソフォクレス||ステファヌス

Authors that people like to read. les auteurs||||| autori||||| 著者|||||

And that's sort of the, the motivation: I want to pronounce the

language like these authors did.

It's not necessary.

One can use the modern Greek pronunciation.

You can...

just as one can use the ecclesiastical pronunciation of ||||||baznīcas|| ||||||کلیسایی|| ||||||教会的|| 教会の発音を使用できるのと同じように

Latin to access the ancient texts.

You can use any pronunciation under these languages.

Like we access Shakespeare by means of our modern North American pronunciation of

English, a modern Englishman, or Scotsmen or Irishman, New Zealander or Australian |||||шотландцы||ирландец||новозеландец|| |||||Écossais|||||| |||||Scottish people||Irish person||New Zealander|| |||||||||neozelandês|| |||||scozzesi||||neozelandese|| |||||スコットランド人||アイルランド人||ニュージーランド人||

can all use whatever pronunciation.

If, I mean, I like to reconstruct Shakespearian pronunciation. |||||||шекспировское| |||||||shakespearienne| |||||||Shakespearean| |||||||Shakespeariana| |||||||shakespeariana| ||||||重建|莎士比亚的| |||||||シェイクスピアの|

I've had a few videos, where I've done that, but, um, it's, it's not

necessary, not necessary for the most part, unless we really want to |||||||a meno che||||

understand the rhymes and other things. ||рифмы||| ||rimes||| ||rhymes with||| ||押韵||| ||rime||| ||rimas||| ||قافیه‌ها را بفهمید||| ||韻|||

And I do think that's important, um, to a certain extent, ||||||||||pakāpe ||||||||||程度

but it's also not practical.

Not everyone out there is a 20 language polyglot. не|||||||

Are there just the way...

Just to interrupt briefly, are there sort of, uh, presentations ||pārtraukt||||||| |||for a moment|||||| |||brevemente||||||

of Shakespeare in the ancient, with the ancient pronunciation?

Yes, the Crystal, father-son team David Crystal and Ben Crystal ||クリスタル|||||||ベン|

have a lot of great recordings.

Um, I, uh, have, uh, a couple of his books, actually.

David Crystal, the father.

Who's done a lot of great work. кто||||||

And at the new Globe Theater in London, I believe it's called, they do performances ||||||||||||||izrādes ||||||||||||||представления ||||Globe Theater|Globe Theater||||||||| ||||||||||||||公演

regularly, or they did I dunno how it has been during the pandemic years, in |||||نمی‌دانم||||||||| ||||||||||||疫情||

Shakespearian pronunciation of the 1600s. شکسپیری 1600s||||

So it was just fascinating and it sounds something like a mix

between North American and Irish, Northern England pronunciation.

It's really great.

I like it a lot.

Uh, because whenever as you talk, I get all these questions in my mind. |||||||||||||tête

So I'm going to interrupt you. |я|||прерывать|

The other question is so much of the Bible was written in Greek. ||||||||Библии||||

Uh, the Byzantine empire was Greek or at least the ministration ||Византийская||||||||управление ||||||||||ministration ||Byzantine Empire||||||||administration ||||||||||administração ||||||||||管理 ||||||||||amministrazione ||||||||||administrācija ||||||||||اداره کردن ||||||||||統治

of it was largely Greek.

So how much evolution was there, say between the Greek of the fifth ||||||||||||cinquième

century of Sophocles, the Greek of, uh, Paul or whatever the Bible. ||Софокл|||||Павел|||| |||||||パウロ||||

The Greek of the Byzantine empire, like it... |||||帝国||

has there been a gradual process of evolution or did they maintain sort |||||||||||maintenaient|

of an ancient form while the people in the villages and the towns spoken |||||||||villages|||| |||||||||villages||||

different Greek that became modern Greek, what's kind of the history there?

What, uh, that is a very astute question. ||||||проницательный| ||||||astucieuse| ||||||perceptive| ||||||敏锐| ||||||scharfsinnige| ||||||astuta| ||||||vieda| ||||||زیرکانه| ||||||鋭い|

And it's also a difficult one to answer because a lot of the things you just

said are essentially true, um, in the sense that it's been a slow evolution

of de-evolving the language at almost every turn, but not ever succeeding ||||||||||||успевая ||évoluer||||||||||réussir ||||||||||||achieving success ||进化|||||||||| ||進化している||||||||||成功する ||||||||||||teniendo éxito

completely in the sense that there's always in almost every single epic of |||||||||||史诗| |||||||||||episode| |||||||||||叙事詩|

Greek literature, a conservative trying to restore, retain things from the past. ||||||restaurer||||| |||traditionalist|||bring back||||| ||||||復元する|||||

Now that's not untrue of even the romance languages, which brought in |||неверно|||||||| |||faux|||||||| |||不虚|||||||| |||نادرست نیست|||||||| |||真実ではない|||||||| |||no es falso||||||||

a huge amount of words from Latin.

Uh, almost anytime you see an AU in say Italian or Spanish or something, ||||||اُو||||||| ||||||AU(1)||||||| ||casi siempre||||||||||| ||||||AU(1)|||||||

that's not a natural sound, that should just be an O, but if it's an AU in

one of those languages, it means it's been taken from Latin literature.

Now, Greek was doing that, not just from say the, uh, the early Renaissance

or late medieval period as happened and say Italian and the other romance ||средневекового|||||||||| ||late medieval||||||||||

languages, but it's constantly been going on even from the times of antiquity. ||||||||||||باستان ||||||||||||ancient times ||||||||||||древности ||||||||||||古代

So the, uh, the...

the Koine language, which is the common language of, uh, from Alexander |Коине|||||||||| |koinè|||||||||| |common Greek|||||||||| |科伊尼语|||||||||| |Koine|||||||||| |کوینه یونانی|||||||||| |コイネ||||||||||

the great all through the end of antiquity, which is itself changing |||||||عصر باستان|||| |||a lo largo||||antigüedad tardía||||

and developing shows um, admiration and, um, utilization of the models of ||||admiration|||utilisation|||| ||||appreciation|||use of|||| |||||||استفاده از|||| |||||||izmantošana|||| ||||欣赏||||||| ||||賞賛|||活用||||

that fifth century BC classical Greek. |piektajā||p.m.ē.|| ||世紀|||

So there's, in the literature we have this, this class, this classicising |||||||||||классическое |||||||||||classique |||||||||||classical style |||||||||||clássica |||||||||||经典化 |||||||||||classificazione |||||||||||klasifikācija |||||||||||کلاسیک‌سازی |||||||||||古典化 |||||||||||clasicizante

movements, which are already going on in antiquity in the time of say Cicero. движения|||||||||||||Цицерон |||||||||||||Cicéron |||||||||||||Cicero's era |||||||||||||キケロ

And then 200 years later at the time of the author, uh, Lucian, a very, |||||||||||Лукьян|| |||||||||||Lucien|| |||||||||||Lucian the author|| |||||||||||Lúcio|| |||||||||||Luciano|| |||||||||||卢西安|| |||||||||||ルキアヌス||

very famous Attic style um, but Koine era like 700 years after that fifth ||雅典风格|||||||||| ||attique|||||||||| ||Greek|||||||||| ||attico|||||||||| ||アッティカ||||||||||

century BC classical era writing in almost perfect classical Attic. |||||||||آیین آتیک

And then you have, um, Anna Komnene of the Komnenos family. ||||||Комнена|||Комнины| ||||||Komnène|||Komnène| ||||||Anna Komnene|||Komnenos family| ||||||Komnene|||Komnenos| ||||||Komnene|||Komnenos| ||||||科门嫩|||科门纽斯| ||||||コムネノス|||コムネノス|

She also wrote in very, very good prose, which was very, in very good |||||||прозе|||||| |||||||prose|||||| |||||||writing|||||| ela||||||||||||| |||||||نثر خوب|||||| |||||||散文|||||| |||||||prosa excelente||||||

imitation of that classical style. imitācija|||| 模仿||||

So it's really interesting how much the language has

been kept from, from evolving. ||||attīstīšanās

And then there's the Katharevousa which happened after the... ||||Катаревуса|||| ||||Katharevousa|||| ||||purified form|||| ||||Katharevousa|||| ||||卡塔雷乌萨|||| ||||カタレヴーサ|||| ||||Katharevousa||||

cause the medieval, which was already highly archaizing wasn't classical enough. |||||||архаизирующим||| |||||||archaïsante||| |||||||old-fashioned||| |||||||arcaizante||| |||||||archeologizzante||| |||||||arhaizējošā||| |||||||古风||| |||||||古風化する||| |||||||arcaizante|||

So they tried to do that again.

And then there was amazing period of diglossia where there was modern |||||||двуязычия|||| |||||||diglossie|||| |||||||language variation|||| |||||||diglossia|||| |||||||diglossia|||| |||||||双语现象|||| |||||||二言語使用||||

Greek, two kinds of modern Greek.