#298 Steve and Alex - About World Leaders (Part 2) #298 Steve y Alex - Acerca de los líderes mundiales (Parte 2) #298 Steve et Alex - A propos des leaders mondiaux (Partie 2) #298 スティーブとアレックス - 世界のリーダーについて（後編） #298호 스티브와 알렉스 - 세계 지도자 소개(2부) #298 Steve e Alex - Sobre os líderes mundiais (Parte 2) #298 Steve ve Alex - Dünya Liderleri Hakkında (Bölüm 2)

Steve:    Oh, and I wanted to mention, it’s interesting -- because I also listen to the Russian media now because I’m trying to finish off my Russian, but I can’t let go, right – and, of course, Václav Havel is not appreciated… Steve: Oh, e volevo dire che è interessante - perché ora ascolto anche i media russi perché sto cercando di finire il mio russo, ma non riesco a lasciarlo andare, giusto - e, naturalmente, Václav Havel non è apprezzato...

Alex:    Oh, really?

Steve:    …by the Russian Government and I would say by public opinion, because public opinion in Russia largely supports the Government. ||||||||||||||||||supports|| Steve: …przez rząd rosyjski, a ja bym powiedział, że przez opinię publiczną, ponieważ opinia publiczna w Rosji w dużej mierze popiera rząd. Steve: ...Rus Hükümeti tarafından ve ben de kamuoyu olarak söyleyebilirim, çünkü Rusya'daki kamuoyu büyük ölçüde Hükümeti destekliyor. He is appreciated by people in the Human Rights Movement, the Helsinki Group or whatever and I heard some of them interviewed on my Czech radio and even on Echo Moskvy there were people who had positive… In fact, one guy very sarcastically commented on the fact that Russia sent their condolences to North Korea over the death of Kim Jong-il and they did not send condolences to the Czech Republic. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||mockingly|||||||||condolences||||||||||||||||condolences|||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||Moskwy||||||||||||sarkastycznie|||||||||kondolencje|||||||||||||||||||| Jest doceniany przez ludzi w ruchu praw człowieka, grupie helsińskiej czy jakiejkolwiek innej, a słyszałem, że niektórzy z nich byli interviewowani w moim czeskim radiu, a nawet w Echo Moskvy byli ludzie, którzy mieli pozytywne… Właściwie, jeden facet bardzo sarkastycznie skomentował fakt, że Rosja przesłała kondolencje do Korei Północnej z powodu śmierci Kim Jong-ila, a nie przesłała kondolencji do Czech.

Now, you can argue that Václav Havel is not a ruling head of state or government official. Ora, si può obiettare che Václav Havel non è un capo di Stato o un funzionario governativo. Teraz można argumentować, że Václav Havel nie jest rządzącym głową państwa ani urzędnikiem rządowym. Теперь вы можете возразить, что Вацлав Гавел не является правящим главой государства или правительственным чиновником. He’s not in office, so therefore according to protocol they’re not obliged to do anything; whereas Kim Jong-il was the de facto, whatever he was, President, glorious leader, but beneath that of course is the real reason and the real reason is several. ||||||||protocol||||||||||||||facto||||||||beneath||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||de facto||||||||||||||||||||| Havel, of course, opposed the Communists. He opposed the influence of Russia because the common turn and Communist sort of hold on Eastern Europe was an extension of the power of Russia. |opposed|||||||||||||||||||||||| Se opuso a la influencia de Rusia porque el giro común y la especie de dominio comunista sobre Europa del Este eran una extensión del poder de Rusia. Si opponeva all'influenza della Russia perché la svolta comune e la sorta di presa comunista sull'Europa orientale erano un'estensione del potere della Russia. Call it Soviet Union, call it World Communist Movement, call it what you want, it was Russia, so he has always opposed that. I think Havel was hoping that Russia would evolve in the same way that say the Czech Republic has evolved into more of a liberal democratic state, which it hasn’t under Mr. Putin. ||||||||||||||||||||||||liberal||||||||

Havel in 2003 won an award -- I can’t remember the name of the award -- as being a role model for someone who fights for human rights and that sort of thing. This was a German award that was established after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Alex:    Oh, interesting.

Steve:    So it’s like a Nobel Prize, if you want, but for that specific, you know people who defend human rights. That German committee decided to give the award in 2005, two years after Havel got his, jointly to Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin and, of course, they do it for purely cynical geopolitical reasons because they’re dependent on Russian oil and natural gas and they hope that if they’re nice to Putin he’ll be nice back at them, basically. |||||||||||||||together||||||||||||||purely|cynical||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||geopolitycznych|||||||||||||||||||||||||| So the fact that he has nothing to do with protecting freedoms, freedom of speech and all the rest of it is kind of wiped off the slate. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||slate |||||||||||wolności||||||||||||||||lista Quindi il fatto che non abbia nulla a che fare con la protezione delle libertà, della libertà di parola e di tutto il resto viene cancellato dalla lista.

Havel said if you give Putin the award I’m giving mine back. So, obviously, Vladimir Putin didn’t like that gesture on the part of Havel, not to mention the fact that Havel took the side of Georgia in the war between Russia and Georgia. But, at any rate, the commentator at Echo Moskvy was quite cynical in saying that it says something about the values of our government when they… I can’t remember what. |||||||||||cynical|||||||||||||||||| You know, Kim Jong-il is a good guy and Havel is a bad guy to our government. So it’s at least refreshing to hear that there are some voices in Russia that are not afraid to express their own views.

Alex:    Yeah, yeah.

Steve:    We should never confuse Russia with even China when it comes to freedom of expression. A lot of these views are not popular in Russia, but you are allowed to say them. And now we’re seeing more sort of demonstrations of some dissatisfaction with Putin’s rule, so it’s not at all like China. ||||||||||||Putin's leadership|||||||| In China it’s more like it was in the old days insofar as criticizing the government. |||||||||||to the extent|||| |||||||||||o ile|||| 在中国，批评政府更像是过去的情况。 You can say many things privately, but publicly you can’t. |||||in private|||| So, anyway…

So, yeah, this is interesting. I mean Havel was 75.

Alex:    Oh, was he?

Steve:    Yeah.

Alex:    Kim Jong-il was I believe 70 or 71.

Steve:    Yeah, 68 to 70. And there are all kinds of conspiracy theories.

Alex:    There will continue to be.

Steve:    Well, exactly. There’s one guy in Japan who wrote a book saying that Kim Jong-il was actually assassinated some years ago and that this is a dummy. ||||||||||||||||assassinated||||||||| ||||||||||||||||zamordowany|||||||||manekin Okay, that’s one. There is the feeling that there is dissention within the ranks. |||||||dissent|||ranks |||||||niezgoda||| Existe la sensación de que hay disensión en las filas. That because Kim Jong-il was made you know, whatever, a Marshall in the Army without ever having served in the Army that that annoyed some members of the Army and the fact that Kim Jong-il was prepared to do a deal with the States in order to receive shipments of grain in exchange for stopping their nuclear program that that annoyed some other section of the Army and that there are dissentions. |||||||||||Marshall||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||dissensions |||||||||||Marszałek|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||wysyłki|||||||||||||||||||||||rozłamy Of course there are always factions. |||||frakcje Por supuesto, siempre hay facciones.

Alex:    Yeah.

Steve:    Always, so who knows what’s going to happen. You’re more familiar with the whole Korean scene than I am. |||||||scene|||

Alex:    Yeah.

Well, even then. I mean even to people who know a lot about it North Korea is so illusive. |||||||||||||||elusive |||||||||||||||iluzoryczny It’s so difficult to find any substantive information to really learn more about it. ||||||meaningful||||||| I had the privilege of talking to a lot of professors who study Korean history and Korean politics and have spent a good portion of their life on this and even to them there’s a lot of uncertainty when it comes to really having insight into North Korea.

Steve:    Well, you know it’s interesting. I read in the paper that children are taken from their parents and brainwashed from the age of like two. |||||||||||||brainwashed|||||| I mean that is tremendously powerful and so they probably did think that Kim Jong-il was like their father. They’re told that all the time. I know from listening to Echo Moskvy that when Stalin died, despite you know perhaps one in 10 Russians were either killed or imprisoned by him and I mean massive famine in farming areas all caused by this man, plus out and out just eliminating people, like shooting them, having them shot and yet when he died everyone thought they’d lost a family member because the power of indoctrination is so great. ||||||||||||||||||||||incarcerated|||||||massive famine||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||brainwashing||| So maybe those people sincerely feel they lost, in a sense, somebody more important than their father. ||||genuinely||||||||||||

Alex:    Right, exactly.

Steve:    I don’t know.

Alex:    Yeah.

I mean it’s interesting. I think one thing, in a way, that sets it apart too is that in the time of Stalin something like the Internet was not even conceived, barely. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||imagined| Я думаю, одна вещь, в некотором роде, отличающая его, это то, что во времена Сталина что-то вроде Интернета даже не было задумано, едва ли.

Steve:    Right.

Alex:    Right?

Steve:    Long before the Internet, yeah.

Alex:    Exactly. And so looking at it from that perspective it’s so interesting to see that some 70 years later in a world where now we’re so connected with each other -- you know, we’re talking here and people are listening to us in countries all over the world -- that North Koreans, basically, are not allowed to have anything outside.

Steve:    No.

Alex:    Everything is totally restricted. If they’re lucky then they get smuggled radios so that they can hear South Korean radio stations and that’s it. ||||||covertly transported|radios|||||||||||| Si tienen suerte, consiguen radios de contrabando para poder escuchar emisoras de radio surcoreanas y ya está.

Steve:    Well, yeah. I mean you can’t blame individual Koreans who are conditioned by this regime and perhaps many of them sincerely have no idea of the mentality sincerely are grieving. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||mourning Quiero decir que no se puede culpar a los coreanos individuales que están condicionados por este régimen y tal vez muchos de ellos sinceramente no tienen idea de la mentalidad sinceramente están afligidos. Probably some are not, we don’t know, but to create a regime like that where a small group of people so thoroughly control the lives, the calorific intake, the thought processes, everything of other people, what right? ||||||||||||||||||||||||||nutritional|caloric consumption|||||||||

To me, whatever else you say about democracy, it’s corrupt, money talks, all the politicians are the same, they’re all self-seeking people who never fulfill their promise, you can say all these things, but at least you have the means to change it if you want. You can go run yourself, you know? It’s as Churchill once said “It’s a terrible system, but it’s the best system we’ve got.” It’s a terrible system, because if you have a system with a small group of people and the temptation is always there ‘Well, you know, democracy is so wasteful. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||wasteful What we need is a really good dictator, someone who will always do the right thing and that will just be so much more efficient and Hitler got everybody working again' yeah, maybe. |||||||authoritarian leader||||||||||||||||||||||||| There is an X-percent chance that the dictator will be a genius, fair, always make the right decision and everybody will live happily ever after, but the chances are very low. ||||||||dictator||||||||||||||||||||||| It’s far more likely that we’ll end up with variations of Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, you name it. È molto più probabile che ci ritroveremo con varianti di Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, e così via. So any time you allow a small group of people to basically control the fate of so many people it’s evil and, unfortunately, they have nuclear weapons.

Alex:    Yeah.

I mean in closing that’s what’s interesting too. Ik bedoel, tot slot, dat is ook wat interessant is. A guy like Kim Jong-il, basically, him and his little crew they took control.

Steve:    Right.

Alex:    They made the decision that they wanted control of this and whatever means it cost they did it.

Steve:    Yeah.

Alex:    But at the same time a guy like Havel is the opposite where he, in fact, attracts the respect of people. He earns that respect.

Steve:    Right.

Alex:    He allows people the decision to say I like you, I dislike you, but in doing that and in being just and in being fair from a completely different ideology he has excelled so much further. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||outperformed greatly||| Alex: Permite a la gente la decisión de decir me gustas, me disgustas, pero al hacer eso y al ser justo y al ser imparcial desde una ideología completamente diferente ha sobresalido mucho más. 亚历克斯：他允许人们决定说我喜欢你，我不喜欢你，但在这样做以及从完全不同的意识形态中做到公正和公平时，他已经表现得更加出色。

Steve:    Well, he’s certainly gained much more respect. By the way, I understand that Kim…what’s the first guy’s name?

Alex:    Kim Il-sung?

Steve:    Kim II-sung is still the leader. It’s beyond a kingdom there.

Alex:    Yeah.

Steve:    It’s like a new theology. |||||theology Like he still rules from the grave, I mean it’s just absolutely extraordinary. Not only is it a family monopoly, but the old man is still ruling from the grave. ||||||monopoly|||||||||| That’s the kind of system they’ve got there. Anyway, one day…

Alex:    Yup.

Steve:    We won’t be visiting there soon. Okay, thank you for listening.

Alex:    Thanks for listening everyone.

Steve:    Bye.

Alex:    Bye-bye.